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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Feb 5th, 2014, 09:54 AM
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Australia 06 R53 with JCW210 - Opinions Wanted on Should I Add 2% OD Crank Pulley?

Hey peoplez - my first thread ever here so would really appreciate your opinions on this one....

I have a 2006 Cooper S which has the JCW210 kit, a Madness JCW Intake Filter kit (though stock air filter box) and MSD coil on it. The engine is currently stock apart from that, has about 130,000klms on it, regularly serviced, mostly street driven and drives really really well.

I have plans to modify the engine for more horsepower (later this year or next year) and aiming to make it a bit of a ‘sleeper’. My goal is to get to about 225-230hp but keep it reliable for street driving.

Earlier this week my serpentine belt broke which destroyed the harmonic balancer (stock OEM unit) in the process, so my next mod is to replace the stock crank pulley unit with an ATI Super Damper.

My dilemma is given I have the JCW210 kit already fitted (but still running the stock intercooler for now), whether to fit the 2% overdrive crank pulley now or stay with the stock size? What do you tuning guys think?

I rang ATI in the US, and also Mini Mania and spoke with their technical guys and posed this very question, neither seemed to think there would be an issue going with the larger pulley.

But I wasn’t terribly confident that either person had any real hands on experience tuning an R53 fitted with the JCW210 kit. As with all things, when it comes to modifying your engine it’s very much a case of do your homework first and buyer beware.

So I rang Way Motor Works who also sell the ATI Super Dampers and spoke to their technical guy. He seemed adamant to stay with the stock size crank pulley so as not to risk over-spinning the supercharger. Argh!

The other consideration I have to balance is that I am saving up to purchase and fit GTT’s JCW Level 3 upgrade kit which I think amongst other things includes an overdrive lightened crank pulley - though I’d much prefer to stick with the ATI OD unit over any lightened pulley.

So an overdrive pulley appears to be part of the GTT solution for upping the power on a Cooper S with the JCW kit. The GTT package does include an uprated intercooler which presumably offsets the likely increased air temps resulting from turning the supercharger a bit faster.

I didn’t want to buy the stock ATI crank pulley only to have to toss it to the side and buy another OD version when I fit the GTT tuning package later, but I certainly don’t want to stuff up the performance of my currently very good running engine either.

I am very aware that air charge temps are one of the critical issues when upping the boost, and living in Australia, we definitely get our share of hot weather and high temps in Summer so heat can be a real issue.

Any thoughts on whether I should keep the stock size crank pulley for now, or bite the bullet and go with the 2% oversize crank pulley?

Would very much appreciate your opinions....

Last edited by jj-snax; Feb 5th, 2014 at 12:05 PM.
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Old Feb 5th, 2014, 12:13 PM
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Hi ya

Do you have the jcw tuning kit as well or us it just an r53 with the 210 upgrade ie injectors and airbox and has been coded for the injectors.

If you don't have the jcw tuning kit you my want to consider some head work may be

Personally If you want more power I would stick to the ATI super damper (standard size), and just change the supercharger pulley to a 15 or 17%, (kavs or alta) that way you will not run in to possible with voltage or charge problems. It's not common but does happen.
There has been threads about oil pumps being damaged by not using a harmonically damped crank pulley. How true I don't know but I steered clear and went for the ATI

With a 15% you will not push you sc to its limit 17% your getting close, but people do go smaller.
Also service you supercharger oil both ends. And Fit a belt tensioner stop

Check your bypass valve is set up properly or you will be loosing boost cheep free power there's lots of threads around about it

Drop in a ns1 cam and time the cam properly this way you will not need a remap (thumper sellers these and is a very helpful and knowledge guy)

I am using a intercooler and diverter from a GP they are getting hard to find but it keeps it looking standard :-), other intercoolers that work well are he GRS Motorsport version or Airtech these would be my choice if I did not have the GP set up
You could get a water meth kit that will keep you IAT's down if you want to go that way.
Personal if you have a jcw210 save your money on the GTT kit your half way there with what you have, put your money on sc pulley better intercooler, cam and manifold.
I run an obx 4-2-1 manifold with a standard mini cat works well and the mid range is much better.

Hope this helps
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Old Feb 5th, 2014, 04:14 PM
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Further tuning a JCW 210 engine

If you want to talk to someone (in the UK) who really understands the original JCW conversions and what works and is safe and reliable over the long term with normal road use, then I would recommend Tony Franks at the Mini Motorsport Centre. His telephone no. is +44 1273 446666.

Tony was the Chief Engineer at John Cooper Garages and was responsible for the development and reliability testing of the 210 upgrade kit and other JCW engine versions including the JCW GP etc.

I have the JCW 225bhp kit fitted to my car which includes: different cylinder head, uprated supercharger & pulley, injectors, airbox and exhaust system and ECU remap.

Spike
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Old Feb 6th, 2014, 08:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by marque (original)
Hi ya

Do you have the jcw tuning kit as well or us it just an r53 with the 210 upgrade ie injectors and airbox and has been coded for the injectors.

If you don't have the jcw tuning kit you my want to consider some head work may be

Personally If you want more power I would stick to the ATI super damper (standard size), and just change the supercharger pulley to a 15 or 17%, (kavs or alta) that way you will not run in to possible with voltage or charge problems. It's not common but does happen.
There has been threads about oil pumps being damaged by not using a harmonically damped crank pulley. How true I don't know but I steered clear and went for the ATI

With a 15% you will not push you sc to its limit 17% your getting close, but people do go smaller.
Also service you supercharger oil both ends. And Fit a belt tensioner stop

Check your bypass valve is set up properly or you will be loosing boost cheep free power there's lots of threads around about it

Drop in a ns1 cam and time the cam properly this way you will not need a remap (thumper sellers these and is a very helpful and knowledge guy)

I am using a intercooler and diverter from a GP they are getting hard to find but it keeps it looking standard :-), other intercoolers that work well are he GRS Motorsport version or Airtech these would be my choice if I did not have the GP set up
You could get a water meth kit that will keep you IAT's down if you want to go that way.
Personal if you have a jcw210 save your money on the GTT kit your half way there with what you have, put your money on sc pulley better intercooler, cam and manifold.
I run an obx 4-2-1 manifold with a standard mini cat works well and the mid range is much better.

Hope this helps

Hi Marque

Thanks for your feedback - much appreciated.

Am pretty sure my car has the full JCW tuning kit (was fitted by the dealer when new). The car has the JCW certificate, badgework on the bootlid etc, the badge on the top engine cover, and also the JCW braking kit.

Point taken about sticking with the stock pulley and changing the SC pulley - I don't know what size the existing supercharger pulley is with these kits. I thought I read somewhere its equivalent to only about 11%??? but if its only 11% why would the Way Motor Works guy be worried about going with the oversize crank pulley??? I must be missing something here...

Definitely have intentions of changing the cam (thanks for suggesting) - I was leaning towards a Schrick cam but will do a bit more research on the NS1 as I hear good things about Thumper.

Good suggestion also about water injection. I know GTT sells these, as does Aquamist - both look pretty good.
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Old Feb 6th, 2014, 08:05 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ihughes (original)
If you want to talk to someone (in the UK) who really understands the original JCW conversions and what works and is safe and reliable over the long term with normal road use, then I would recommend Tony Franks at the Mini Motorsport Centre. His telephone no. is +44 1273 446666.

Tony was the Chief Engineer at John Cooper Garages and was responsible for the development and reliability testing of the 210 upgrade kit and other JCW engine versions including the JCW GP etc.

I have the JCW 225bhp kit fitted to my car which includes: different cylinder head, uprated supercharger & pulley, injectors, airbox and exhaust system and ECU remap.

Thanks for the tip - good info and I will definitely give him a call as he would have to be a reliable source of knowledgeable info.

The 225 kit sounds awesome - you must love driving that and leaving everyone behind in your dust!!
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Old Feb 6th, 2014, 09:19 AM
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Yes the 225bhp kit is fantastic.
My car was originally a dealer fitted 210 conversion from new but a previous owner had the 225bhp engine upgrade fitted as he was developing the car as a track day special. He also had Challenge Cup racing brakes fitted (larger 6 pot caliper front discs and uprated rears) which I think are essential to cope with all the extra power.

I took my car back to Tony Franks recently for new front pads & discs.......and discovered quite a bit more about the engine conversion.

Apparently John Cooper Garages were developing the next generation JCW engine for the Gen 1 MCS for BMW. The plan was to increase the standard power output to around 225-230bhp. They had a batch of new cylinderheads made and built a series of test engines. Then BMW made the decision to change the MCS engine to turbo-charged and the engine development programme on the supercharged engine was halted.

John Cooper Garages then had a number of cylinderheads left over from the development programme, so they sold these off as part of a very limited edition 225bhp type conversion. The conversion was mega expensive so not too many were sold and the total number was limited by the number of cylinderheads they had left.

Tony cannot remember how many 225bhp engines were actually built and they were all potentially different depending on the specification the customer wanted. But given how many engines were built for the development programme and BMW testing, our guess is that there are maybe 20-30 conversions originally.

My engine plate number is C.72 but Tony says there is no logic to the code used on these special engines.

Also, Tony told me that 225-230bhp was the maximum they could safely extract from the supercharged engine in order to safely be covered by the BMW warranty. He also said that even their full blown racing engines only maxed out at 280bhp but of course these didn't have to last as long in use!

When I discussed if there was anything further I could do to my engine to increase its power output, Tony basically said not without compromising the reliability!

However I suspect that fitting a larger intercooler in hot climates might make a difference. The Gen 1 standard GP intercooler and air diverter would seem to be the most obvious way to go but these are difficult to obtain and expensive. I guess it really depends on if you wish to retain the original OEM look to the engine rather than bolting on one of the alternative intercoolers such as the Airtech which test results show works quite successfully.

Spike
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Old Feb 6th, 2014, 11:47 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ihughes (original)
Yes the 225bhp kit is fantastic.
My car was originally a dealer fitted 210 conversion from new but a previous owner had the 225bhp engine upgrade fitted as he was developing the car as a track day special. He also had Challenge Cup racing brakes fitted (larger 6 pot caliper front discs and uprated rears) which I think are essential to cope with all the extra power.

I took my car back to Tony Franks recently for new front pads & discs.......and discovered quite a bit more about the engine conversion.

Apparently John Cooper Garages were developing the next generation JCW engine for the Gen 1 MCS for BMW. The plan was to increase the standard power output to around 225-230bhp. They had a batch of new cylinderheads made and built a series of test engines. Then BMW made the decision to change the MCS engine to turbo-charged and the engine development programme on the supercharged engine was halted.

John Cooper Garages then had a number of cylinderheads left over from the development programme, so they sold these off as part of a very limited edition 225bhp type conversion. The conversion was mega expensive so not too many were sold and the total number was limited by the number of cylinderheads they had left.

Tony cannot remember how many 225bhp engines were actually built and they were all potentially different depending on the specification the customer wanted. But given how many engines were built for the development programme and BMW testing, our guess is that there are maybe 20-30 conversions originally.

My engine plate number is C.72 but Tony says there is no logic to the code used on these special engines.

Also, Tony told me that 225-230bhp was the maximum they could safely extract from the supercharged engine in order to safely be covered by the BMW warranty. He also said that even their full blown racing engines only maxed out at 280bhp but of course these didn't have to last as long in use!

When I discussed if there was anything further I could do to my engine to increase its power output, Tony basically said not without compromising the reliability!

However I suspect that fitting a larger intercooler in hot climates might make a difference. The Gen 1 standard GP intercooler and air diverter would seem to be the most obvious way to go but these are difficult to obtain and expensive. I guess it really depends on if you wish to retain the original OEM look to the engine rather than bolting on one of the alternative intercoolers such as the Airtech which test results show works quite successfully.

After reading your car specs am just wiping the drool off my chin!! Wow-sounds like you've got a great setup on your car.

Am not sure we ever had a 225HP option down here in Australia, and although there's plenty R53's around here, even the JCW210 equipped cars seem a bit thin on the ground. So I think if I can up the power a bit more than what I've got, I should be able to hold my own in traffic.

Re: power limit - yes I agree with you. I had read somewhere else that around 225-230hp is about the limit for practical motoring purposes hence why I'm not trying to push higher than that. Am definitely going to make use of additional water cooling including possibly water injection to help keep those IATs in check.

But for now, my problem is to determine which crank pulley to go with. I've just got off the phone to Roland from GTT tuning and sent him an email about the mods I want to do and asking his advice on the crank pulley and I will post his comments as soon as I get a reply.
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Old Feb 6th, 2014, 11:47 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by jj-snax (original)
Hi Marque

Thanks for your feedback - much appreciated.

Am pretty sure my car has the full JCW tuning kit (was fitted by the dealer when new). The car has the JCW certificate, badgework on the bootlid etc, the badge on the top engine cover, and also the JCW braking kit.

Point taken about sticking with the stock pulley and changing the SC pulley - I don't know what size the existing supercharger pulley is with these kits. I thought I read somewhere its equivalent to only about 11%??? but if its only 11% why would the Way Motor Works guy be worried about going with the oversize crank pulley??? I must be missing something here...

Definitely have intentions of changing the cam (thanks for suggesting) - I was leaning towards a Schrick cam but will do a bit more research on the NS1 as I hear good things about Thumper.

Good suggestion also about water injection. I know GTT sells these, as does Aquamist - both look pretty good.

Hi ya

You are right about the sc pulley size it is 11% on yours, good news for you if you have the full tuning kit. Most of the cars I have seen with the tuning kit and the 210 upgrade are running 200 ish hp. Obesely it depends on the engine and how it's been looked after weather bla bla bla.
The only things I can think of with an oversize crank pulley is the reduction of clearance on the tensioner idler and like I said over speeding the alternator messing up the voltages these car are a little sensitive to voltage fluctuations.
Even a bad battery can cause all kids of problems with you BCU and DME, and I think getting the correct belt lengths if my memory serves me right was abit of a mission.

my advice standard size ATI or even SFI crank pulley, 15% or 17% pulley for your sc. You should do the intercooler at the same time to get the full benefit and protect your engine in the high OAT's. (GP, GRS or Airtech) keep an eye in the classifieds there's been a few GRS on mini torque over the last few weeks. If you want an Airtech speak to rich at orranje very good guy.
Water meth is a good way to go to keep the intake temps down :-)
Manifold and cam you will be making good reliable power.
From what I remember about the JCM 225 kit is is basically the 210 kit with JCM exhaust manifold and a slightly different map but just anything major.

There are a some good tuners in uk as ihughes says :-) tony is a good guy been there since day one. We also have 1320 mini who lots of guys use here and over on mini torque,people travel from abroad to go to them, lohan, coastal Racing and the list goes on. Kavs are very good to and very helpfull.

Anyway which ever way your adventure takes you it will be fun and the grin will get bigger :-)

Beeeer time :-)
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Old Feb 7th, 2014, 09:11 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by marque (original)
Hi ya

You are right about the sc pulley size it is 11% on yours, good news for you if you have the full tuning kit. Most of the cars I have seen with the tuning kit and the 210 upgrade are running 200 ish hp. Obesely it depends on the engine and how it's been looked after weather bla bla bla.
The only things I can think of with an oversize crank pulley is the reduction of clearance on the tensioner idler and like I said over speeding the alternator messing up the voltages these car are a little sensitive to voltage fluctuations.
Even a bad battery can cause all kids of problems with you BCU and DME, and I think getting the correct belt lengths if my memory serves me right was abit of a mission.

my advice standard size ATI or even SFI crank pulley, 15% or 17% pulley for your sc. You should do the intercooler at the same time to get the full benefit and protect your engine in the high OAT's. (GP, GRS or Airtech) keep an eye in the classifieds there's been a few GRS on mini torque over the last few weeks. If you want an Airtech speak to rich at orranje very good guy.
Water meth is a good way to go to keep the intake temps down :-)
Manifold and cam you will be making good reliable power.
From what I remember about the JCM 225 kit is is basically the 210 kit with JCM exhaust manifold and a slightly different map but just anything major.

There are a some good tuners in uk as ihughes says :-) tony is a good guy been there since day one. We also have 1320 mini who lots of guys use here and over on mini torque,people travel from abroad to go to them, lohan, coastal Racing and the list goes on. Kavs are very good to and very helpfull.

Anyway which ever way your adventure takes you it will be fun and the grin will get bigger :-)

Beeeer time :-)

Hi Marque - thanks again for posting and all your suggestions have been taken onboard. Also thanks for the names of tuners - some I knew of and some I didn't, so I will be checking what the others can offer me too over the weekend.

Am just waiting for my email from Roland then will sit down and make a decision from there.

Just took delivery of 2 x Esco jack stands today (wow - these are very strong and robust looking) so the busted crank pulley will be coming off this weekend all being well in readiness for the arrival of whatever I end up ordering.

Hammers & spanners here I come!!....
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Old Feb 7th, 2014, 12:53 PM
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Hi cool :-)

put the swear box away and get the plasters and superglue out :-) :-)

If you have not all ready See if you can get one of these well worth it

http://youtu.be/Ia4lx-Qert0
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Old Feb 9th, 2014, 03:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by marque (original)
Hi cool :-)

put the swear box away and get the plasters and superglue out :-) :-)

If you have not all ready See if you can get one of these well worth it

ALTA Tensioner Stop - YouTube

Hi Marque

Yes - agreed, and very good idea. I will include a tensioner stop with the kit.

Got an email back from Roland today from GTT.

He's recommended:
Go with stock size ATI crank pulley and add:

GTT -17% SC pulley + belt
GTT Cold Ram Kit ( complete version)
GTT Idler Pulley (I might need to buy a new tensioner if my old one is stuffed)
GTT 63mm Throttle Body
GTT Camshaft
GTT Brand new Bypass valve
NGK Iridium plugs ‘7’ heat range ...£39
Optional Items..... GTT Intercooler & snoot boots
and possibly a GTT Oil Catcher Can

He believes the 380cc injectors and existing ECU map should be fine with the above.

If I'm going to stick a cam in it, am thinking the timing chain and tensioners should be renewed too.
Also am thinking I should service the supercharger oil whilst we've got the engine pulled down as I don't think its ever been touched.

Any Thoughts?
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Old Feb 9th, 2014, 04:05 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by jj-snax (original)
GTT Cold Ram Kit ( complete version)

Waste of money as your car already has the JCW airbox.

Not sure you need a new throttle body either.
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Old Feb 9th, 2014, 09:49 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by jj-snax (original)
Hi Marque

Yes - agreed, and very good idea. I will include a tensioner stop with the kit.

Got an email back from Roland today from GTT.

He's recommended:
Go with stock size ATI crank pulley and add:

GTT -17% SC pulley + belt
GTT Cold Ram Kit ( complete version)
GTT Idler Pulley (I might need to buy a new tensioner if my old one is stuffed)
GTT 63mm Throttle Body
GTT Camshaft
GTT Brand new Bypass valve
NGK Iridium plugs ‘7’ heat range ...£39
Optional Items..... GTT Intercooler & snoot boots
and possibly a GTT Oil Catcher Can

He believes the 380cc injectors and existing ECU map should be fine with the above.

If I'm going to stick a cam in it, am thinking the timing chain and tensioners should be renewed too.
Also am thinking I should service the supercharger oil whilst we've got the engine pulled down as I don't think its ever been touched.

Any Thoughts?

Hi ya

I agree with caveman stick with you airbox and filter set up, you will have less heat soak in hotter weather, just de-flap it

Idler pulley : I would not touch as they have been known to fail and spit the belt off tbh there is nothing wrong with oem one as long as the bearing is ok. You can carefully pop of the bearing cover and re grease it

Throttle body : uuummmm yes/ no I would leave it till later spend your money else were, and you can modify you throttle body with out modifying the butterfly.

Bypass valve : set yours up properly easy job, alot of guys use a stiffer spring in the bpv, but i did not like the way it acted. The same thing can be achieved by the VGS mod that's a simple job few quid job done.

Cam : yes becareful as I said some cams require a remap to even idle correctly, 1320 cat cam I think is very good but you need a remap or an FA53 lite kit not cheep but well worth it
I am running a NS1 as it's ideal for me plenty of mid range more power and I don't have to rev the nuts out of it, but I could get ore power by a remap but I don't need it at the moment if and when I will go to 1320 or buy an FA53 kit

Plugs : you want to be running NGK iridium BKR7EIX sparkplugs.co.uk is where I get mine from

17% sc pulley : sounds good but you will need an intercooler to run this safely.
I use an alta sc pulley never had trouble with it and it's not locked by a tapper the tapper type have been known to spin on the sc shaft

Intercooler : most of the guys I know run GRS or Airtech or GP if you keep your eyes open you can get a second hand one cheep ish. These work very well

Catch can : is worth it there a few good ones around m7, bsh. it's ok having a catch can but really you need an oil seperator/catch can.

Which every way you go once it's done get it on a dyno and get the air fuel ratios checked out to make shore it's all ok.

Catch can
http://orranje.co.uk/shop-by-car/bmw...-can-first-gen

Pulley
http://orranje.co.uk/shop-by-car/bmw...1/kavs-pulley1

Plugs
http://www.sparkplugs.co.uk/pages/da...partno=BKR7EIX

Vgs mod
http://www.northamericanmotoring.com...ystem-vgs.html

Bpv
http://www.northamericanmotoring.com...r-replace.html

Throtal body
http://www.mini2.com/forum/first-gen...ttle-body.html

Hope this helps
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Old Feb 10th, 2014, 10:00 AM
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Marque & Caveman - I can't thank you guys enough for staying with this thread and giving me your advice - wow a steep learning curve for me!!! :-).

Has really got me thinking really hard before I spend my "hard earned".

Am thinking of going with the Janspeed headers from GTT.

Agreed - I'll stick with my JCW airbox with high flow cone filter for now. I honestly couldn't see what advantage the GTT ram air flow unit would do for me except empty my wallet a bit more. I didn't deflap my airbox, but I did do the Mini Madness recommended mod to disconnect the servo which also wedges it fully open. I might remove the flap completely next time I service the filter.

Thanks also for your notes on the idler pulley. Reflecting on what you're both telling to me, and thinking I might be best to simply spend a few $ on a brand new belt tensioner unit (given that mine has 130,000 on it) so that I know for sure the belt tensioner is up to scratch and simply add a tensioner stop for safety.

Re: suggestions on intercoolers - again I agree with you. I've done a bit more research tonight on the best performing Intercoolers and decided the the MINI GP unit is the way to go for me. I know its a bit pricey to buy but it would maintain some of the OEM look, and I think it would outperform the GTT unit in terms of efficiency, and my engine bay gets to keep the JCW badge if I buy the whole kit.

Cams... hmmm - ok you've got me thinking. Now that you mention it - yes I DO want strong mid-range and dont want it all up top. I notice plenty threads on NAM talking about various cams and the NS1 cam DOES seem to be highly regarded for the road.

I think what I'll do is hold off on the cam and SC pulley for now, and leave that for Stage 2 of my project when I'll be talking with someone like Thumper heads and get it all as a head/road cam/SC pulley (will probably go 15% but not till I've upgraded the IC) /camshaft chain tensioner combo plus a dyno tune and remap - that way I can be certain all of those parts are matched & setup correctly and we've got a reliable rig.

No sense in going for lots of power only to have to ring the tow truck to bring you home each time.

Am going to read carefully through the VGS valve mod tonight - you're right it doesn't look that hard to do and is also easily reversible if I stuff it up! Also saves have to remove the BPV !! Else I could still get the GTT BPV or even the Detroit Tuned version

Thanks Marque also for the links - I have plenty more reading to do!!!

Haven't really got my head around the oil catch can bit but I will readup a bit more on why they are needed.

Well, today I ordered a stock size ATI super damper, a few tools I'll need for the job and my Mini is already sitting up on the Esco jack stands with the front wheel & wheel liner removed. I need to get started as I need to get the car back on the road.

Will let you know how I go.
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Old Feb 10th, 2014, 11:08 AM
MINI2 Master
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: South london
Posts: 1,165
Local Time: 02:44 PM
United Kingdom Male
Hi ya

No problem Yer there's lots of reading up I know, been there can be a nightmare.
Trying to work out what's best for what you want with out waisting money can be a pain.
Just take your time don't rush in, the ATI is a good place to start :-)
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