Simple Performance Question?

[wow]

How fast can u make a MINI Cooper?
Any chance of 200 nM torque and 110 kw?
Please let turbos and NOS be a last resort.

Come on boys and girls lets think!

[kyriian]

chip, although i hardly doubt any company can make the claims you want

let's see... intake, exhaust, cams, tb, chip... but without turbo you won't reach 110kw, nor 200nm.. at least i doubt it's possible

[wrecky]

how much power could you get out of intake, cams and pulleys without chip?

[punkeyfunky]

Quote: Originally Posted by wow

How fast can u make a MINI Cooper?
Any chance of 200 nM torque and 110 kw?
Please let turbos and NOS be a last resort.

Come on boys and girls lets think!

Well, chip, K&N filter, playMINI cat back and Magnecor wires make virtually no difference at all.

I've not yet got the cash to try a ported head & new cam.

Easiest way? Seriously - sell the Cooper and get an S I think!

-Lee

[tuscan_thunder]

ok: first question, what's 110kw in bhp????


right, max power from a cooper. ignoring money, and let's pretend the S doesn't exist:

bore it out to 1.8 or maybe 1.9 litres if the block can stand it. massive inlet and exhaust valves, huge overlap on them and crazy timing (like the engine probably wouldn't run below 3500rpm.)

forged rods, billet crank, lightened and balanced everything, lightened flywheel, match and smooth inlet and exhaust ports. the engine should be safe to about 9000rpm now.

add throttle bodies. i feel the full set of four, perhaps stolen off a Hayabusa or a similar big 'bike to ensure they fit. go for short inlet manifold to get maximum power (sacrifices torque) Jenvey bodies would be ideal but i'm not sure they'd fit.

take off all the ancillaries, power steering pump, all motors, heater fan etc (should gain about 2 or 3bhp)

rip out the headlights, grille etc to get as much cold air in as possible.

remove the cat and go for a full, balanced exhaust. need to balance back pressure against flow.

i reckon you might push about 220 or 230bhp with this. but it would be totally undriveable, would cost you an ABSOLUTE fortune and is genrally pretty pointless!!!!!!!!

yrs
t_t

(based on what i've seen done to a ford crossflow. 1660cc full spec and it can push out about 185bhp. that's a very old design of engine- but a good one- so surely the mini could pump out about 220)

[obehave]

Quote: Originally Posted by tuscan_thunder

ok: first question, what's 110kw in bhp????


right, max power from a cooper. ignoring money, and let's pretend the S doesn't exist:

bore it out to 1.8 or maybe 1.9 litres if the block can stand it. massive inlet and exhaust valves, huge overlap on them and crazy timing (like the engine probably wouldn't run below 3500rpm.)

forged rods, billet crank, lightened and balanced everything, lightened flywheel, match and smooth inlet and exhaust ports. the engine should be safe to about 9000rpm now.

add throttle bodies. i feel the full set of four, perhaps stolen off a Hayabusa or a similar big 'bike to ensure they fit. go for short inlet manifold to get maximum power (sacrifices torque) Jenvey bodies would be ideal but i'm not sure they'd fit.

take off all the ancillaries, power steering pump, all motors, heater fan etc (should gain about 2 or 3bhp)

rip out the headlights, grille etc to get as much cold air in as possible.

remove the cat and go for a full, balanced exhaust. need to balance back pressure against flow.

i reckon you might push about 220 or 230bhp with this. but it would be totally undriveable, would cost you an ABSOLUTE fortune and is genrally pretty pointless!!!!!!!!

yrs
t_t

(based on what i've seen done to a ford crossflow. 1660cc full spec and it can push out about 185bhp. that's a very old design of engine- but a good one- so surely the mini could pump out about 220)

jlm has posted in the past that there isn't enough material between cylinders to do a lot of overbore in these blocks.
Here's a link Read post #6

This is just a cool thread put this in just for fun

Oh! Just to be anal This all still might not make the car a lot faster, just quicker. Big difference.

[tuscan_thunder]

haha- love jlm's comment of "good luck"!!!!

i was just guessing about boring out. guess the walls are pretty thin. i'd be scared to bored out more than a tiny amount for fear of hitting an oilway. and if you're only doing a tiny amount what's the point??!!

even as a 1600 engine, i'd guess you'd push 200 brake??

i love this idea of speccing an engine to guess how much you can get out of it!! i'm going to do some research later on and see what i can dream up!

[RobHardyUK]

My answer, buy a mcs and tune it with smaller pulleys, different head etc. wouldnt even need to do much. and save yourself loads and have a quicker car.

[RedUn]

Quote: Originally Posted by tuscan_thunder

ok: first question, what's 110kw in bhp????


right, max power from a cooper. ignoring money, and let's pretend the S doesn't exist:

bore it out to 1.8 or maybe 1.9 litres if the block can stand it. massive inlet and exhaust valves, huge overlap on them and crazy timing (like the engine probably wouldn't run below 3500rpm.)

forged rods, billet crank, lightened and balanced everything, lightened flywheel, match and smooth inlet and exhaust ports. the engine should be safe to about 9000rpm now.

add throttle bodies. i feel the full set of four, perhaps stolen off a Hayabusa or a similar big 'bike to ensure they fit. go for short inlet manifold to get maximum power (sacrifices torque) Jenvey bodies would be ideal but i'm not sure they'd fit.

take off all the ancillaries, power steering pump, all motors, heater fan etc (should gain about 2 or 3bhp)

rip out the headlights, grille etc to get as much cold air in as possible.

remove the cat and go for a full, balanced exhaust. need to balance back pressure against flow.

i reckon you might push about 220 or 230bhp with this. but it would be totally undriveable, would cost you an ABSOLUTE fortune and is genrally pretty pointless!!!!!!!!

yrs
t_t

(based on what i've seen done to a ford crossflow. 1660cc full spec and it can push out about 185bhp. that's a very old design of engine- but a good one- so surely the mini could pump out about 220)

it'd sound gud tho!!

[tuscan_thunder]

red 'un what do you mean it'd sound good?? it'd sound VERY GOOD!!!!! haha!!

i reckon that machined, custom made throttle bodies would be best, totally port matched. open up the inlet and exahust ports too. i was speaking cr*p yesterday. a hayabusa has carbs, not bodies! d'oh.

so bodies, to allow mapable ignition. i think some crazy massive injectors, maybe stolen off a cosworth or subaru would be good. twin fuel pumps to chuck fuel into them. race fuel. maybe 105 or 110 octane rally fuel would be good. timing could be advanced majorly to take advatage of the fuel.

with a lightened, balanced steel billet crank the bottom end could handle crazy revs. running race fuel with the timing advanced enough, i think 10,000 rpm is on the cards!! yee ha! as power is a measure of the energy an engine can expend in a given time, the higher the revs, the higher the work rate, the higher the power. so the higher the engine can rev, technically, higher the power. (mapping can make this different on road engines)

with big valves, all components lightened etc and bored out to maybe 1.8 (should be safe enough to that without splitting oilways) , i think about 130bhp per litre is on the cards giving 234bhp.

now.....i think we MIGHT just have to uprated the gearbox and put a diff in now......

ps: just read this again. 10,000rpm out of a mini running bodies. and 234bhp. with no forced induction. how crazy is this..??

anyone want to add to this? i think we could try to spec the ultimate track/race cooper? right, who's supension guru? i can do spring rates, and camber angles quite well but not much else.

[HarryHBMCC]

pared down a bit:

Quote: Originally Posted by tuscan_thunder

with a lightened, balanced steel billet crank the bottom end could handle crazy revs. running race fuel with the timing advanced enough, i think 10,000 rpm is on the cards!! yee ha! as power is a measure of the energy an engine can expend in a given time, the higher the revs, the higher the work rate, the higher the power. so the higher the engine can rev, technically, higher the power. (mapping can make this different on road engines)

with big valves, all components lightened etc and bored out to maybe 1.8 (should be safe enough to that without splitting oilways) , i think about 130bhp per litre is on the cards giving 234bhp.

now.....i think we MIGHT just have to uprated the gearbox and put a diff in now......

ps: just read this again. 10,000rpm out of a mini running bodies. and 234bhp. with no forced induction. how crazy is this..??

You really think the valves will work at 10000RPM? Big valves you said? Better be very high tech or they won't move that fast. And if you do manage that, how often do you think you'll be rebuilding?

Power is about two things really, RPMs and torque. To get high power you need to let the engine rev high AND keep the torque up at the some time. Doing that with NA engines requires fancing caming, lifting and valving, and is expensive. It is no good having high torque and low RPM limit (unless you are towing), or having high RPM limits but torque that falls way off (in which case you might as well shift up to the next gear).

The stock Cooper engine is already very high compression so you can't do much there. Look to special cams and valves plus good intakes and exhaust tuning and see what you can get; probably 160HP or so but I doubt you'll get any more. Torque wouldn't go up so the stock box would probably take it.

Harry

[tuscan_thunder]

Quote: Originally Posted by HarryIndiBlue

pared down a bit:


You really think the valves will work at 10000RPM? Big valves you said? Better be very high tech or they won't move that fast. And if you do manage that, how often do you think you'll be rebuilding?

Power is about two things really, RPMs and torque. To get high power you need to let the engine rev high AND keep the torque up at the some time. Doing that with NA engines requires fancing caming, lifting and valving, and is expensive. It is no good having high torque and low RPM limit (unless you are towing), or having high RPM limits but torque that falls way off (in which case you might as well shift up to the next gear).

The stock Cooper engine is already very high compression so you can't do much there. Look to special cams and valves plus good intakes and exhaust tuning and see what you can get; probably 160HP or so but I doubt you'll get any more. Torque wouldn't go up so the stock box would probably take it.

Harry

we ( or is it just me??!) are talking absolute extremes of engine here. i'm not talking road engine, not really talking about an engine anyone would bother building, just what CAN be achieved. commonsense has gone out the window here.

yes, i think the engine will run to 10,000. we tested a 1640 crossflow a couple of weeks back. stage 3 head, steel crank, running 244 kent cam, twin 45 webers, and double valve springs. etcetc. it sat at 9300rpm. for an engine released to the general public in 1964.

i don't think there's any reason why a Mini engine (about 30 years newer a design than the x-flow) couldn't sit at 10k.

i have to disagree with you on one point: power is NOT about torque. torque is a separate issue. power and torque tend to go hand in hand, but power is the measure of work done. torque is a measure of twisting force.

you say "to get high power you need to let the engine rev high AND keep the torque up at the same time". WRONG!!!! look at a Formula one car. 900bhp at 19,000rpm. but only about 250lb/ft torque. high power and high revs. not a lot of torque. look at a motorbike. hayabusa: 1300cc. 170bhp at 13,500rpm (est) 92 lb/ft torque.

the engine is open to a lot of work. i do think that 230bhp is the absolute max you could extract from the cooper engine. sure, if you built it to put out that, i wouldn't idle below about 3000rpm wouldn't pull cleanly til about 7000 etc, but i'm talking if you were to build a hillclimb motor. something which needs absolute power and does very few miles.

(quite honestly though, for the money you'd spend building this engine, you could build a full spec vauxhall 2litre red top and get 300bhp. and about 6000miles between rebuilds. and still have enough money for 3 rebuilds.

[obehave]

I think we've slipped past the Simple Performance Question.

[tuscan_thunder]

obehave, yeh you're right. i have kind of overtaken this thread!

do you think i should start a new one to see what we all reackon the 'ultimate' THEORETICAL Cooper could be?

[uae mini]

Quote: Originally Posted by tuscan_thunder

obehave, yeh you're right. i have kind of overtaken this thread!

do you think i should start a new one to see what we all reackon the 'ultimate' THEORETICAL Cooper could be?

go for it... its a good read