[Tone]

Cheers, Paul...

[TURB CAB]

I have read that the new engine will provide the MINI S with more torque than the present supercharged engine.

240 Nm from 1 400 r/min maintained consistently all the way to 4 000 r/min.

I believe the MINI S puts out only 220Nm.

[LizL]

Quote: Originally Posted by kshapiro

I'd put up a stink..no French engines in my MINI. In fact, no french wine in it either. I've always thought their cars were crap, but the political reasons are even stronger. Even though I oppose this war, the French have always hated us for saving their ass. If it weren't for the Brits and Americans, therer wouldn't be a freakin' France.

My dear Countryman- Me thinks you should brush up on your history (and taste in wine) before brazenly posting such drivel to all the world! Please go back and read your revolutionary war history, as well as the history for the war of 1812. You would see that there would be no USA without the French. Or perhaps you like the Statue of Liberty? Given to us by the French because they admired our country and what it stood for at that point in history.

Please don't embarrass your fellow American MINI lovers' with such small minded vitriol on an international message board. Go read the international polls of what the world thinks of us on the BBC web page, we are now despised the world over for such arrogance.

Sell your MINI and buy a Chevy truck so you can be a real American! ( Look at your currant MINI closely, there are parts made in France in the current incarnation)

[cobus]

Good evening !

Old posts said that the R50 Mini would have the new engines before being restyled.
I read long ago on MINI2 forums that production of new engines would begin in 2006 (meaning, you could buy one end 2006 or beginning 2007).

Now a mate from the french club "Club Nouvelle Mini" tells me here that the new engines will be available for Model Year 2006, starting in september 2005.

So I'd like an "insider" (Paul, maybe ?) to tell me when we will be able to buy a new engined Mini.

Thanks for any info !

Have a nice night/day !

Cobus.

[andy007]

i work in a bmw/ mini workshop and to the best of my knowledge we have had no engine problems what so ever, unlike,,,,,,,,rattles, gearbox failure , software probs, water leaks, door catches, suspension failure, pulling to the left, interior quality issues, air bag faults..

so its 10 out 10 for engine 0 for the rest of the car,,,

now add a peugeot engine and that opens a whole can of worms..

the mini is a cracking car no doubt even with some technical faults, every car has some.

but to change an item as important as an engine with another manufacturer is suicide...

god help you the customer,,,,, i think it will keep me in work for a few more years as the car will be even more unreliable,

andy

[Yellow/Black OneD]

Do we have any facts about the PSA diesel yet? One of the reasons they have gone that way is because of horsepower, so have we any info on how much bhp and lb/ft it will be?

[Paul]

Not really, although there will be a Cooper Diesel around 100hp.

[pyratio]

Quote: Originally Posted by jazmini

After going through all these posts, I'm pretty pumped about this new engine. Wow -- a BMW designed engine -- that's impressive. Built in house for quality control. Turbo -- with minimal turbo lag. Much lighter weight than current models. 140 hp on MC with 170 on MCS -- that's only 30 hp added for the turbo, so with that small a turbo, the lag should indeed by minimal, especially with BMW's new design with reduced lag. So, much higher hp is possible. People having driven prototypes and giving it a thumbs up. All this is good! I want one!

Please check out this reliability ranking...

http://www.autobytel.com/content/sha...cle_id_int/409

Now where is Mini on that list? Where is BMW? I think the strength that Mini has currently is that it was an experimental independant group. Supported by their father(land) corporation BMW. Now that the Brits lost their engine of choice, BMW is stepping in and trying to maximize profits while minimizing costs. Translation, they're gonna go as cheap as they can for parts.

The question is quality and tuneability right? Well as far as quality goes it appears that BMW has a really bad track record. They have huge amounts of defects and their current 7 and 5 series flagship cars are rated as the worst cars to own for reliability. Mercedez which currently builds the current Mini engine has excellent long term reliability though. They are reported at 72% of their cars remain on the road after 5 years. Regardless of how many initial problems they have the Mercedez cars last longer.

The engine is the soul of the car. Period no question. Anyone who disagrees go drive a 4 cylinder Mustang, and then get in the new V8. One car speaks to you one doesn't.

As far as tuneability, I see a lot of aftermarket parts for japanese turbo engines, but not as many for BMW. I would rather have a supercharger myself because a few hundred dollars in mods will net a lot more horsepower than any mod you could make to a turbo charger.

As far as all the "we hate the french" talk, um they did save our butts in the Revolutionary war and they did train our Marines to fight off the British. Because back then our American troops were mostly farm boys. Why do you think we have so many french terms in the military? Now we did save their butts in world war II so I'd say we should call it even. Yeah they suck as far as the Iraq situation but so does Spain. Personally I love French and Spanish girls so I'd be willing to forget about it over a bottle of Wine. Whaddayasay guys and gals?

Just my humble opinion.

--pyratio

[Paul]

Quote: Originally Posted by pyratio

Please check out this reliability ranking...

http://www.autobytel.com/content/sha...cle_id_int/409

Now where is Mini on that list? Where is BMW? I think the strength that Mini has currently is that it was an experimental independant group. Supported by their father(land) corporation BMW. Now that the Brits lost their engine of choice, BMW is stepping in and trying to maximize profits while minimizing costs. Translation, they're gonna go as cheap as they can for parts.

MINI is not/was not "an experimental independant group", you should read up a bit on the history before making statements like that.

These off a good start to learning about BMC/Rover/BMW etc. and the Mini/MINI Marque:
http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/index.htm?ado15storyf.htm
http://bmw.bizhat.com/
http://www.outmotoring.com/mini_history.html

Quote:

The question is quality and tuneability right? Well as far as quality goes it appears that BMW has a really bad track record. They have huge amounts of defects and their current 7 and 5 series flagship cars are rated as the worst cars to own for reliability. Mercedez which currently builds the current Mini engine has excellent long term reliability though. They are reported at 72% of their cars remain on the road after 5 years. Regardless of how many initial problems they have the Mercedez cars last longer.

"Mercedes" don't build the current MINI engine, it's built by Tritec, a joint BMW and Chrysler group venture in Brazil, which was undertaken before Chrysler where part of the same group as Mercedes. According the link you posted above, there's more problem Mercs than BMWs too.

http://www.tritecmotors.com.br/english/index.html

Quote:

The engine is the soul of the car. Period no question. Anyone who disagrees go drive a 4 cylinder Mustang, and then get in the new V8. One car speaks to you one doesn't.

As far as tuneability, I see a lot of aftermarket parts for japanese turbo engines, but not as many for BMW. I would rather have a supercharger myself because a few hundred dollars in mods will net a lot more horsepower than any mod you could make to a turbo charger.

What about owners of the Diesel MINI, or the non-supercharged Cooper, they still love the car, but have different flavours of engines. The engine is extremely important, but most people seem to agree the MINI is more about the handling and overall package than the engine alone.

The new engines will also be much higher volume, so the aftermarket tuning opportunities should also increase.

[pyratio]

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Mullett

MINI is not/was not "an experimental independant group", you should read up a bit on the history before making statements like that.

--Whoah Paul, didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. I'm not saying that the Mini is an experiment. I know that Mini has been around for a while. I do know some (not all) of the history of the car, but for BMW, this venture is an experiment. Case in point, how long has BMW/Mini been producing cars together? If it's less than a decade for any corporation it's still in the experimental phase. Trust me if Mini sales go into the trash heap, BMW will unload Mini like it did Land Rover. It's all about money for these guys. They aren't in the business of building works of art or an emotionally stirring vehicle. They are about "show me the money!!"

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Mullett

"Mercedes" don't build the current MINI engine, it's built by Tritec, a joint BMW and Chrysler group venture in Brazil, which was undertaken before Chrysler where part of the same group as Mercedes. According the link you posted above, there's more problem Mercs than BMWs too.

Daimler-Chrysler and Mercedes are one and the same. Many people have noted that since the merge many of Chrysler's vehicles have become wildly successful, due partially to integration of Mercedes parts and Mercedes R&D.

The plant and the company of Tritec was where the joint venture came in. The Tritec 1.6 was designed in Detroit and put together by Chrysler. As I mentioned before Chrysler and Mercedes are one and the same as are Mini and BMW will be eventually. Just as BMW forced Mini to improve their car design to BMW standards so has Mercedes required the same of Chrysler. In any case I believe even Chrysler is above Mercedes and BMW's defect rating. How bout that? The child company does better than the parent.

Mercedes and BMW encounter huge initial problems with their vehicles when it comes to number of defects per 100 vehicles. However Mercedes has a much better long term reliability than many other car manufacturers. Currently BMW has 2 of the least reliable cars on the market which are their "flagship" models. While Mercedes has the bragging rights of 72% of their 5 year old vehicles are still running on the road. Wouldn't you say that a good dependable engine is a big part of what it takes to make a reliable car long after the warranty has expired? That's the point I'm trying to get at. Daimler Chrysler make really tough dependable engines and they've recently been tough and high performance.

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Mullett

What about owners of the Diesel MINI, or the non-supercharged Cooper, they still love the car, but have different flavours of engines. The engine is extremely important, but most people seem to agree the MINI is more about the handling and overall package than the engine alone.

The new engines will also be much higher volume, so the aftermarket tuning opportunities should also increase.

Paul I'm not saying that the Mini won't be loved by their owners anymore or that it will become just another sub compact. Hell look at all the car clubs for Ford Pintos, Ford Mustang II's, and deLoreans..etc. etc. People will love their cars no matter how unreliable, quirky or expensive they are to run. Nothing will stop that. I know people who love their little Ford Festiva's even with half of the car falling apart. I'm saying that I wish BMW would find someone else to build this engine since Daimler-Chrysler won't play nice anymore. Even a Mini mechanic on this board has stated that the french engine is a bad choice.

BMW reported that they would probably take losses on the Mini division for the first 6 to 8 years. Now that Mini has passed it's first trial in garnering outstanding sales numbers, BMW will now try to make it a profitable division by cutting corners where-ever it can. You'd be surprise what a corporation would to improve its profit margins by just a point or two. The problem with this is that they jeopardize the reputation and future sales of the car if their gamble doesn't work.

I'm saying I like the package as it is now. I know it is going to change and I can't do anything about it. But putting all of your faith in BMW is not a great idea. Their track record has been getting worse and worse every year. As for PSA, I've generally not heard good things about them in long term reliability either.

The tritec engine will live on though. Daimler and Nissan are already working out a deal to fully utilize that plant for other vehicles. Last I heard there was a chinese company using the 1.6 for a car that was well over the 100,000 production and sales mark in china.

Yes I agree the Cooper is definitely not only about the engine. I love the handling and its road manners. But I love the supercharged engine too. I love the whole car man. I'm a fan or I wouldn't be here proclaiming doom and gloom with the future engine. j/k.

I think the future engine will meet BMW's cost vs profit expectations. Whether it will delight us and improve upon the old engines performance is an area where I am very skeptical of. But we'll have to see won't we? I'm curious to see what happens, but I'll be waiting with my 05 or 06 MCSa.

--pyratio

[Goonery]

[quote=pyratio


A lot of text was here


--pyratio[/QUOTE]


Lets put the record staight eh !
Quote
Case in point, how long has BMW/Mini been producing cars together? If it's less than a decade for any corporation it's still in the experimental phase. Trust me if Mini sales go into the trash heap, BMW will unload Mini like it did Land Rover. It's all about money for these guys. They aren't in the business of building works of art or an emotionally stirring vehicle. They are about "show me the money!!"

WRONG, yes the money is important , producing cars that make nothing is plain daft, but BMW & MINI as you state are not a partnership or collaboration, MINI is a distinct BRAND and as such is looked after and nurtured in just the same way as 1, 3, 5,6 and 7 series Z4 and X5 (Oh i forgot the other X3). The BMW Group goes from strength to strength year upon year, making more and selling more, the investment in new facilities and models is completely against the trend of other larger manufacturers. They produce cars for drivers who enjoy even covet handling and performance, thats what BMW do best and they are succeeding.
BMW reported that they would probably take losses on the Mini division for the first 6 to 8 years. Now that Mini has passed it's first trial in garnering outstanding sales numbers, BMW will now try to make it a profitable division by cutting corners where-ever it can. You'd be surprise what a corporation would to improve its profit margins by just a point or two. The problem with this is that they jeopardize the reputation and future sales of the car if their gamble doesn't work.

Any new model takes losses in its first years of production, its inevitable, tooling , design , facilities and so on cost millions, the investment has to be recouped before the car can turn a profit. My point is no pain no gain, BMW took a risk sure, but it paid off and now production figures cannot meet the demand of the customers, as a result of this success the car is being revamped and will sell in even bigger numbers as a result, but it will never become common or ordinary, the world could drive MINI and it still would not be ordinary.

The plant and the company of Tritec was where the joint venture came in. The Tritec 1.6 was designed in Detroit and put together by Chrysler. As I mentioned before Chrysler and Mercedes are one and the same as are Mini and BMW will be eventually. Just as BMW forced Mini to improve their car design to BMW standards so has Mercedes required the same of Chrysler. In any case I believe even Chrysler is above Mercedes and BMW's defect rating. How bout that? The child company does better than the parent.

Ohh Dear, where do you get your information ?
The Tritec engine was jointly developed and further improved by BMW and its partners, BMW did not force MINI to improve, BMW and MINI are the same company, its a natural progression to make improvements and enhance the product at every opportunity, if you don't you die. The Tritec engine is bullet proof, strong and well put together, the headroom from for improvement is phenominal, witness cars running in excess of 260BHP , way above any MINI or JCW spec.

Mercedes and BMW encounter huge initial problems with their vehicles when it comes to number of defects per 100 vehicles. However Mercedes has a much better long term reliability than many other car manufacturers. Currently BMW has 2 of the least reliable cars on the market which are their "flagship" models. While Mercedes has the bragging rights of 72% of their 5 year old vehicles are still running on the road. Wouldn't you say that a good dependable engine is a big part of what it takes to make a reliable car long after the warranty has expired? That's the point I'm trying to get at. Daimler Chrysler make really tough dependable engines and they've recently been tough and high performance.

Lets leave BMW out of this , we are talking MINI here, which has just won the accolade of Auto Express Used car of the year, the residuals are still strong and to be honest I know of hundreds, yes Hundreds of owners who would not hesitate to buy another MINI, and do when funds permit. I dont recall a D/C car being particularly desirable or reliable in any reports I've seen (and I see a lot ) So what exactly are you basing your argument on ?.

Paul I'm not saying that the Mini won't be loved by their owners anymore or that it will become just another sub compact. Hell look at all the car clubs for Ford Pintos, Ford Mustang II's, and deLoreans..etc. etc. People will love their cars no matter how unreliable, quirky or expensive they are to run. Nothing will stop that. I know people who love their little Ford Festiva's even with half of the car falling apart. I'm saying that I wish BMW would find someone else to build this engine since Daimler-Chrysler won't play nice anymore. Even a Mini mechanic on this board has stated that the french engine is a bad choice.

Ok, the Tritec engine will not meet the future EEC regs without massive work and cost, it weighs too much and has othe undesirable traits which mean it must be replaced by something else, how can a MINI mechanic state that the new engine is a bad choice when nobody in the general public has actually tried it for reliabilty or anything else for that matter. its pure heresay or should I say heresy. It will work and it will be fantastic.

I'm saying I like the package as it is now. I know it is going to change and I can't do anything about it. But putting all of your faith in BMW is not a great idea. Their track record has been getting worse and worse every year. As for PSA, I've generally not heard good things about them in long term reliability either.

So you don't trust BMW with MINI is that it, well think again, go look at the real facts,, then when you have a sensible head on come back and convince me .


The tritec engine will live on though. Daimler and Nissan are already working out a deal to fully utilize that plant for other vehicles. Last I heard there was a chinese company using the 1.6 for a car that was well over the 100,000 production and sales mark in china.

And why might that be ?, well Chiina need a cheap workhorse engine, and thay dont have strict EEC regs on emissions, so it makes sense to get a mule that is getting on but has a few years left in it. CHEAPLY!!

So to summarise, Stop living in the past, get real, interpret the facts as they are and dont harbour prejudices, you will feel al ot better for it in the morning.

[pyratio]

Quote: Originally Posted by goonery

So to summarise, Stop living in the past, get real, interpret the facts as they are and dont harbour prejudices, you will feel al ot better for it in the morning.

--Holy flame batman! Wow I was only expressing my opinion. No need to attack people. I am living in the present thank you very much. I like what is still available for the next year or two. Also I have every right to harbor Prejudices against cars I'm not fond of. It is after all MY opinion.

If you like BMW, fine. That doesn't change my opinion of their cars. I'm not attacking you or your car, I'm just saying that I don't like BMW's build quality. I love Mini's just like all of you do and I thought I could share my opinion. My mistake.


--pyratio

[Goonery]

Quote: Originally Posted by pyratio

--Holy flame batman! Wow I was only expressing my opinion. No need to attack people. I am living in the present thank you very much. I like what is still available for the next year or two. Also I have every right to harbor Prejudices against cars I'm not fond of. It is after all MY opinion.

If you like BMW, fine. That doesn't change my opinion of their cars. I'm not attacking you or your car, I'm just saying that I don't like BMW's build quality. I love Mini's just like all of you do and I thought I could share my opinion. My mistake.


--pyratio

I could have gone further, but instinct and a few other things tempered my ..............

sure you are entitled , and if you like Stuttgart Taxi build quality thats fine by me, but you really should understand just what is going on before you make broad and accusative statements.
Maybe i am a little biased, but i've been in the industry a long time have owned, driven and tested a lot of cars in that time, in my honest opinion there is no better car for the money or driving pleasure than something with a blue and white propellor badge or MINI logo on it.
I'm not flaming you, I'm just putting in a balanced opinion

[Paul]

Quote: Originally Posted by pyratio

--Whoah Paul, didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. I'm not saying that the Mini is an experiment. I know that Mini has been around for a while. I do know some (not all) of the history of the car, but for BMW, this venture is an experiment. Case in point, how long has BMW/Mini been producing cars together? If it's less than a decade for any corporation it's still in the experimental phase. Trust me if Mini sales go into the trash heap, BMW will unload Mini like it did Land Rover. It's all about money for these guys. They aren't in the business of building works of art or an emotionally stirring vehicle. They are about "show me the money!!"

This is my point "BMW/Mini" are not "producing cars together". Mini is a marque, a brand, it is not "a company" as such (or wasn't seen as such until quite recently under BMW ownership of the brand).

From what you are saying all new cars made by any parent company are "experimental", and if that's the case, there's no need to make a point of it really. It just sounded to me like you meant that in a slightly demeaning way to the manner in which BMW are treating the project.

Every company, every car maker, is out there to make money, BMW have been extremely good at that lately too.

Quote:

Daimler-Chrysler and Mercedes are one and the same. Many people have noted that since the merge many of Chrysler's vehicles have become wildly successful, due partially to integration of Mercedes parts and Mercedes R&D.

know this, but the engine was agreed apun and developed before the merge, which is why mercedes doesn't really have anything to do with the argument. This is one of the reasons I suggested you read more into the cars history as some of the statements you are making don't really stand up to logical scrutiny.

Quote:

The plant and the company of Tritec was where the joint venture came in. The Tritec 1.6 was designed in Detroit and put together by Chrysler. As I mentioned before Chrysler and Mercedes are one and the same as are Mini and BMW will be eventually. Just as BMW forced Mini to improve their car design to BMW standards so has Mercedes required the same of Chrysler. In any case I believe even Chrysler is above Mercedes and BMW's defect rating. How bout that? The child company does better than the parent.

As I said above, Merceded were not on the scene when the tritec engine was developed, it was a Chrysler/BMW thing. I doubt very much BMW would have made the agreement with Mercedes on the scene in the first place. There's some places you just dont want to go for co-operation, such as local arch rivals!

Quote:

Mercedes and BMW encounter huge initial problems with their vehicles when it comes to number of defects per 100 vehicles. However Mercedes has a much better long term reliability than many other car manufacturers. Currently BMW has 2 of the least reliable cars on the market which are their "flagship" models. While Mercedes has the bragging rights of 72% of their 5 year old vehicles are still running on the road. Wouldn't you say that a good dependable engine is a big part of what it takes to make a reliable car long after the warranty has expired? That's the point I'm trying to get at. Daimler Chrysler make really tough dependable engines and they've recently been tough and high performance.

Merceded don't come into the discussion, BMW wouldnt and wont work with them on the MINI engine, it's a chrysler/BMW thing (as I say, pre Mercedes) and it just wont carry on for the MINI.

Quote:

Paul I'm not saying that the Mini won't be loved by their owners anymore or that it will become just another sub compact. Hell look at all the car clubs for Ford Pintos, Ford Mustang II's, and deLoreans..etc. etc. People will love their cars no matter how unreliable, quirky or expensive they are to run. Nothing will stop that. I know people who love their little Ford Festiva's even with half of the car falling apart. I'm saying that I wish BMW would find someone else to build this engine since Daimler-Chrysler won't play nice anymore. Even a Mini mechanic on this board has stated that the french engine is a bad choice.

The MINI mechanic hasn't had anything to do with the new unit. People do love the MINI, despite a lot of problems with reliability and build issues in early cars. They are quirky, and the engine, despite being a little "old style" belter (and very solid) is very poor on fuel consumption compared to most superminis. The new engine should offer more power, and far better running costs, than the current units do.

Quote:

BMW reported that they would probably take losses on the Mini division for the first 6 to 8 years. Now that Mini has passed it's first trial in garnering outstanding sales numbers, BMW will now try to make it a profitable division by cutting corners where-ever it can. You'd be surprise what a corporation would to improve its profit margins by just a point or two. The problem with this is that they jeopardize the reputation and future sales of the car if their gamble doesn't work.

MINI is already in profit, they announced this a while back, way ahead of schedule it's making money. Of course all good companies aim for maximum return on their investment, and larger profit margins. It's the way of business.

This is common practice, it's not something to fear. There are a lot of stories going around, with things like the clip on roofs, loss of the clam shell and z-axle, that are making people worried. They shouldn't.

People are commonly saying that the most recent cars and model year MINI is the best yet in terms of reliabilty and quality. It's also cheaper to produce car for car than the "old" style new MINI. Clever that isn't it.

Quote:

I'm saying I like the package as it is now. I know it is going to change and I can't do anything about it. But putting all of your faith in BMW is not a great idea. Their track record has been getting worse and worse every year. As for PSA, I've generally not heard good things about them in long term reliability either.

This site has been here since before the new MINI began, and we and our members have been extremely critical, and harsh, on BMW in the past and will continue to be so. I really don't like a lot of the new changes to the current model year, and I've said so. I'm fortunate enough to go to press events and mingle with BMW management and I express concerns raised on here a lot. Also BMW do read this forum and do know what people's hopes and fears are.

As you say, it's all about making money, and the best way to do that is keep current customers happy and wanting more, at the same time attracting new buyers to the market. Cheapen down the percieved quality of the brand and you're not going to win anyone over, and risk losing your current bunch of enthusiasts. Not good business sense.

Quote:

The tritec engine will live on though. Daimler and Nissan are already working out a deal to fully utilize that plant for other vehicles. Last I heard there was a chinese company using the 1.6 for a car that was well over the 100,000 production and sales mark in china.

Yes I agree the Cooper is definitely not only about the engine. I love the handling and its road manners. But I love the supercharged engine too. I love the whole car man. I'm a fan or I wouldn't be here proclaiming doom and gloom with the future engine. j/k.

There's also the Diesel and non-supercharged MINIs, don't forget about those and their loyal group of fans. It's not all about the Supercharged S, which a minority of owners have.

Quote:

I think the future engine will meet BMW's cost vs profit expectations. Whether it will delight us and improve upon the old engines performance is an area where I am very skeptical of. But we'll have to see won't we? I'm curious to see what happens, but I'll be waiting with my 05 or 06 MCSa.

--pyratio

I'm very positive about the new engines in the new car, but maybe that's because I've spoken to those with first hand experience of the engine and car. I'm lucky to be in that position I know, but if I was hearing negative murmourings (and I do about some things), I'd also share that news.

My main issue with the way you're viewing ths situation is that you're taking it as a "Mercedes" engine compared to a BMW/PSA engine (and you never responded to where Mercedes are on that reliabilty list compared to MINI either), when the current engine wasn't something Mercedes had a hand in, it was pre-Mercedes Chrysler.

In the "early days", it might be interesting to add, when BMW took a more full responsibilty for the MINI project from Rover, was that people involved in working on the project under Rover (under BMW) and under BMW alone, felt that BMW were almost ruining the project because they wanted a "quality small car", a "little BMW", with lots of electronic gadgetry and nice touches, where as the Rover "vision" was a far more simple, back to basics form of motoring. BMW actually were trying to raise the quatliy, but obviously this did increase complexity and weight at the same time, something some workers on the development side where less than happy with. It doesn't all fit with some people's "cut every corner, save every penny" of BMWs handling of the MINI brand.

We've all got every right to question, pester, and demand the best from BMW when it comes to the next generation MINI, Clubman, and Cabrio., but lets not get too down, they've done alright so far.

[Cooper_Andy]

I took a trip to the Peugeot plant in Coventry a week ago, and was informed that PSA also produce engines for Ford and Jaguar, particularly the diesel engines.

I recall that the new twin turbo PSA developed diesel in the S-Type has received lots of praise, I don't think people have anything to worry about in terms of the future engine plans in conjunction with PSA.

Andy.

[pyratio]

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Mullett

In the "early days", it might be interesting to add, when BMW took a more full responsibilty for the MINI project from Rover, was that people involved in working on the project under Rover (under BMW) and under BMW alone, felt that BMW were almost ruining the project because they wanted a "quality small car", a "little BMW", with lots of electronic gadgetry and nice touches, where as the Rover "vision" was a far more simple, back to basics form of motoring. BMW actually were trying to raise the quatliy, but obviously this did increase complexity and weight at the same time, something some workers on the development side where less than happy with. It doesn't all fit with some people's "cut every corner, save every penny" of BMWs handling of the MINI brand.

We've all got every right to question, pester, and demand the best from BMW when it comes to the next generation MINI, Clubman, and Cabrio., but lets not get too down, they've done alright so far.

--You're right Paul, I shouldn't get too down on the new 2007 model. We should wait and see. But I think you hit the nail right on the head as far what I'm afraid of. The make the Mini a "little BMW" attitude is exactly what I'm terrified of. I like that BMW is trying to raise the quality of the car. I wouldn't like to see future variants with three dozen computers controlling essential things like brakes or throttle control. My friends that do have BMW's tell me constant horror stories about their ABS computers applying the brakes at 40mph without warning.

--And again, sorry sorry, no I was not being disparaging of the Mini corporation. Quite the opposite really. I have a lot respect and admiration for a car company that listens to their customers and mechanics. And they even go one step further and apply that knowledge to new models. Mini has always been innovative and damn impressive. The car company and the cars are tops in my book. Aces all the way.

--Here is one of the articles that kinda spun me into panic mode tho:

http://www.motoringfile.com/2005/01/..._the_next_mini

--Perhaps this is the original design group getting back to basics? If they could make the suspension setup work just as well for say 300 pounds less the car would handle even better. I'll try and look at the bright side.

--pyratio

[Paul]

Quote: Originally Posted by pyratio

--Here is one of the articles that kinda spun me into panic mode tho:

http://www.motoringfile.com/2005/01/..._the_next_mini.

--pyratio

There's one thing I've learnt from very early on. Don't trust what is printed in car mags, only spy photos, and never take those as a true example of the future cars, just an interesting glimpse of what might be. Seriously, the mags print (and have printed) a load of nonsense and guesswork about the new MINIs since before they were released, in partcular with regards new models

We're lucky that we've always had good sources here, off the record and on the record, and try to report and type in here only what we are very confident will come to pass (eg the latest news on the Diesel engines). Magazines however print a lot of stuff, mostly to sell magazines and fill column inches to go with some new photoshop images or spy photos they've paid an agency good money for.

[SteveM3]

MINI as a separate entity to BMW is just a marketing ploy so what holds for BMW holds
for MINI. BMW are in the car business to make money but there is a reason why they are
so successful (improving sales year on year). The take a long term outlook and won't
compromise their engineering led values for short term profit. So you know you get the
best engines and the best chassis this side of specialists like Porsche/Ferrari/etc. The
Tritec motor is probably cheap, don't forget when MINI was launched everyone, i.e. the
press, expected higher prices than was announced. The Tritec has been a success in
all ways but one. It does not have the refinement of a BMW engine. This isn't the first
mistake by BMW, E36 3 series had terrible trim problems at first when they over did
cost savings. I suspect history will also condemn Bangle as another. I fully expect the
new engines to put this right but suspect we may see higher prices as the other side
of the coin. I say this although I'll probably stick to the Tritec as I prefer superchargers.

p.s. where did the 72% of all Mercedes still on the road come from? This sounds a
very low % after 5 years. Any long term reliability Mercs have will go when the newer
cost reduced Mercs get older. Cost reduced by the way to generate the money to get
the ailing Chrysler corp back on it's feet. At least Chrysler produce interesting mass
produced cars.