[tagheuer]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/news_article.asp?na_id=211646

[Wobert]

Just a few comments....

Firstly, unless the MkII is a lot lighter, I'm not sure how they're goining to get away with less power / torque, without making the car any less sluggish.

Secondly, turbocharging within BMW is only used on diesels........BMW will not sign-off a gasoline engine that features turbocharged forced induction.

Thirdly, 200 bhp will not be competitive in 3 years time......we're already at 210 bhp, any less will be a retrograde step, unless, again the car is 150 kg lighter.

I smells a rat.....

Robert

[Cooper76]

I think moving from 115 to 104 and then 115 to 140 is BMW's way of catering to the American market (140 is way more competitive than 115) and also moving more people into a Cooper instead of a One.

Also, if you have a 115 Cooper to begin with, I don't think you are all that concerned with horsepower. Besides, they said that their new engines will be more responsive and have more torque which will probably make you forget about the HP numbers.

The S goes up 30 to 200 is very nice as well.

[Andromcs]

My question is...does the statement about the current Mini motor have truth in it? Is it a basically bad motor that has been polished? Reminds me of the saying about polishing a turd!

Now, I am waiting for my MCS which should be a Jan. '05 build with lsd. Thus delivery in Feb. or March '05. Is the current motor so bad that I should wait until '06? It seems to me that there are many, many very happy current owners that really like how the current motor performs.

Anyone have a technical view of the two engines that could give an opinion?

[Andromcs]

Found this on NorthAmerican:

THE TEAM THAT DESIGNED THE MINI PENTAGON ENGINE WAS ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ENGINE IN THE DODGE VIPER.

Also:

This High Performance Derivative of Tritec's 1.6L engine was recently named by Ward´s Auto World Magazine as one of the 10 best engines in the world for model year 2003. The 16-valve, supercharged, 4-cylinder, in line engine powers the award winning BMW Mini Cooper S, delivering a modest 163 bhp at 6,000 rpm.

Copied from the Tritec website. And Tritec Motors website:

http://www.tritecmotors.com.br/english/

Seems like it's a good powerplant.

[Cooper76]

Quite frankly, although I am sure BMW could build a better one from scratch, if the Tritec was poor, they wouldn't have approved it.

[andyupnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by wobert123

Just a few comments....

Firstly, unless the MkII is a lot lighter, I'm not sure how they're goining to get away with less power / torque, without making the car any less sluggish.

88bhp and 104bhp on offer for the MINI One and 140bhp for the Cooper with more torque all round............how is that less power/torque?

Quote:

Secondly, turbocharging within BMW is only used on diesels........BMW will not sign-off a gasoline engine that features turbocharged forced induction.

Turbocharging is returning to BMW petrol engines in the new 3-series with a 340bhp turbocharged 3.0litre six in a sporting 330Ti model.

Quote:

Thirdly, 200 bhp will not be competitive in 3 years time......we're already at 210 bhp, any less will be a retrograde step, unless, again the car is 150 kg lighter.

Not disagreeing but 200bhp is pretty competitive in any car the size of the MINI

Quote:

I smells a rat.....

Roland?

Robert[/quote]

[ButtonIt]

Quote: Originally Posted by Autocar

The current car’s biggest weakness is its Brazilian-built and Chrysler-sourced Pentagon engine. Although the unit has been well polished by BMW engineers, it cannot completely disguise its budget origins.

WTF? OK it might be a bit heavy, but it's strong and reliable. Who wrote this? Sounds like the opinion of just one man to me.... but what would I know

[Wobert]

Quote: Originally Posted by andyupnorth

88bhp and 104bhp on offer for the MINI One and 140bhp for the Cooper with more torque all round............how is that less power/torque?



Turbocharging is returning to BMW petrol engines in the new 3-series with a 340bhp turbocharged 3.0litre six in a sporting 330Ti model.



Not disagreeing but 200bhp is pretty competitive in any car the size of the MINI

Roland?

Robert

[/quote]
The comment regarding turbocharging is related to an article in EVO in conjunction with the M5 launch.

I know from past experience that BMW regard turbocharging as undesirable in gasoline engines. Primarily because it causes additional problems due to the heat that is generated. This in turn requires extra cooling capacity etc.

Robert

(ex-engine designer @ Lotus.......where turbocharging was a way of life.....esp. the Lotus Carlton / Omega / Esprit V8)

[Wobert]

I stand corrected on the power issue with the Cooper / ONE........misread/ interpreted original article....

[~Marcus~]

140bhp sounds good for a Cooper, I find mine slightly too slow when accelerating in the top gears apart from that it's all the performance you need in London.

Trust me, with the new crash regulations coming into force (pedestrian crash tests, SUV side impact tests, rear high speed impact tests) the new MINI is not going to be lighter.

[andyupnorth]

The comment regarding turbocharging is related to an article in EVO in conjunction with the M5 launch.

I know from past experience that BMW regard turbocharging as undesirable in gasoline engines. Primarily because it causes additional problems due to the heat that is generated. This in turn requires extra cooling capacity etc.

Robert

(ex-engine designer @ Lotus.......where turbocharging was a way of life.....esp. the Lotus Carlton / Omega / Esprit V8)[/quote]

See this week's long article in Autocar about the new 3 series and the return of turbocharging to BMW's petrol engines.

[Tonyt3]

I would remind everyone - tritec engine - made by Chrysler - partner of Daimler - Mercedes Benz....

New engine is inevitable.

Also, a few years ago, BMW never made Front Wheel Drive SuperCharged cars, so don't discount a turbo or anything else.

[Wobert]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tony*t3

I would remind everyone - tritec engine - made by Chrysler - partner of Daimler - Mercedes Benz....

New engine is inevitable.

Also, a few years ago, BMW never made Front Wheel Drive SuperCharged cars, so don't discount a turbo or anything else.

Erm.....I'm not discounting a turbocharged engine........

I'm just stating what was in the press regarding BMW's engineering methods.....and past personal experience.......a turbocharged engine is a cheap and dirty way of producing more power........supercharging or going the n/a route is a lot more sophisticated route to getting more power!

[Paul]

This is (mostly) very old news and still at least partly guess work.

It's worth the pain of reading through this long thread: http://www.mini2.com/forum/future-variants/42860-bmw-peugeot-citroen-group-engines.html You will see I and others have been working quite hard to keep on top of the future engine developments, including revealing things like multi-stage turbo charging etc.

[Paul]

Quote: Originally Posted by wobert123

Erm.....I'm not discounting a turbocharged engine........

I'm just stating what was in the press regarding BMW's engineering methods.....and past personal experience.......a turbocharged engine is a cheap and dirty way of producing more power........supercharging or going the n/a route is a lot more sophisticated route to getting more power!

You going to tell Mercedes that? Seeing as they're also dropping the supercharger.

[dee]

EERM Hello

Are we missing something here ????

I saw the article in Auto Express re the new engines, sure we can all talk about the quality. power etc from them but what about.........


IF THESE NEW ENGINES COMPLETELY SPOIL THE LOOK OF THE CAR, I MEAN REALLY THAT HUGE LUMP ON THE ENGINE IS LAUGHABLE

[Paul]

Quote: Originally Posted by dee

IF THESE NEW ENGINES COMPLETELY SPOIL THE LOOK OF THE CAR, I MEAN REALLY THAT HUGE LUMP ON THE ENGINE IS LAUGHABLE

There's been a lot of those photos on here already, so regulars probably are over it. They're (quite early) test mules, the lump wont be there, the MINIs growing anyway, so it wont be needed, and the engine can already be mounted in the current "S" front with the bonnet ajar a little, you'd hardly know it if you saw one now.

[Wobert]

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Mullett

You going to tell Mercedes that? Seeing as they're also dropping the supercharger.

DON'T FLAME ME!!!

BTW The turbocharger was originally developed for use on the Diesel engine, where it's much more suited, as Diesels run at a far lower charge temperature (ie the temperature at which the charge burns). Turboing a gasoline engine creates far too much heat.....which is not good for durability.

I worked on several turbo set-ups at Lotus, on both their own and customer engines.......Lotus V8, GM L850 (the engine that's fitted in the VX220, Vectra, Astra et al), the slant four Esprit engine and numerous concepts that were built as prototypes (including a 300bhp 4WD Vauxhall Cavalier!)

So I am familiar with the technology!

[Tonyt3]

Quote: Originally Posted by dee

EERM Hello

IF THESE NEW ENGINES COMPLETELY SPOIL THE LOOK OF THE CAR, I MEAN REALLY THAT HUGE LUMP ON THE ENGINE IS LAUGHABLE

I'm not disagreeing with you there, but remember when they first started talking about putting a great big hole in the middle of the most volupturuss bonnet ever seen on a car - they said that would spoil it.....

Likely hood is when the properly redesign the car to fit the engine, rather than using a pretty standard car as a 'mule', the engine will possibly sit lower....