MINI2

smartbomb · Jul 11th, 2006, 04:31 PM

Well if my father had left a racing legacy I would have kept it running and not sold it !

Rakey · Jul 11th, 2006, 06:50 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by venox22

then it'd just an M mini, no Cooper heritage behind, which in my opinion is most of the reason behind people buying works conversions

but didn't that start to happen back in the Rover days with the name Cooper been an every day model which was factory built?

I see it as natural progression, just as John sold the use of his name to Rover, Mike has now sold the use of the John Cooper Works as well as the S to MINI/BMW, no difference.

I am sure if they wanted they could produce a tuning kit for the JCW, and think of another term, which is pretty much how the Works started out to offer something over above what they had just sold to the manufacturer?

But I think that Mike doesn't have the same kind of interest that John had in the mini/MINI and is basically taking the money and running. I mean there was a time that he actually owned an Aston rather than a MINI

Tonyt3 · Jul 11th, 2006, 07:14 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Rakey

But I think that Mike doesn't have the same kind of interest that John had in the mini/MINI and is basically taking the money and running. I mean there was a time that he actually owned an Aston rather than a MINI

ITs a bit presumptious to say he's 'taking the money and running'. Sure, he wont be a poor man, but I understand that its more to do with ill health caused by stress. Whether true or not, its a real shame.

Mike has kept the company running well over the last few years, and maybe he doesnt feel the same connection as his father, but to me thats not a known fact, and I wouldnt speculate on the reasons for giving it all up, and I certainly wouldnt say 'take the money and run', I'm sure it breaks his heart to have to sack all the staff thats stuck with the company over the years.

timmydamini · Jul 11th, 2006, 07:32 PM

All I can say is:

It's a sad day for the Mini community to see the company that started the Cooper tradition, close its doors.

Best of luck to them, they'll be missed.

rentagas · Jul 11th, 2006, 07:35 PM

I think it's too early to say what will happen to the JCW brand/name. I was hoping that BMW would allow JCG to officially provide JCW upgrades over and above the JCW 210 (eg the JCW 225) once the new new mini runs of the production line.

However I do think the JCG name on cars and the existence of a physical link between the new mini and classic mini was important. In may ways the involvement of John Cooper provided an evolutionary link between the cars. In some way my car and the great cars of the early 60's shared the same DNA. I appreciate that this has been coming for some time but my belief is that BMW/MINI have much to lose putting it's Granny in a home.

smartbomb · Jul 11th, 2006, 07:52 PM

I guess the John Cooper Works name will continue. Although there will no longer be the Works development behind it. It may as well be called Jurgen Klinsmann autos ! I mean if there is no works why use the name ?
BMW/MINI seem to have struck again by buying a brand and then spitting out what bits they don't need.
If the market for MINI is still as strong as sales figures show, why close a place that sells them ?
I'm not going to argue the toss on this as it could go on forever !
Just that the way I see it is when MINI/BMW became involved money became a much bigger factor than just the cars.
At least Frank William still has his name on his cars, he got a good deal out the Germans ! They didn't manage to buy his name, his comapny and dump him !

Rakey · Jul 11th, 2006, 07:56 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Tonyt3

ITs a bit presumptious to say he's 'taking the money and running'. Sure, he wont be a poor man, but I understand that its more to do with ill health caused by stress. Whether true or not, its a real shame.

Mike has kept the company running well over the last few years, and maybe he doesnt feel the same connection as his father, but to me thats not a known fact, and I wouldnt speculate on the reasons for giving it all up, and I certainly wouldnt say 'take the money and run', I'm sure it breaks his heart to have to sack all the staff thats stuck with the company over the years.

why is it?

John took the money and ran, then he started doing S conversions, then he took the money again and the Works was added?

This is no different, good luck to him I saw, I know I would probably have done a similar thing in Mikes shoes, but I can't stand to see people using this as a chance to bash BMW and blame them.

Its not as if they had a gun to his head and made him sell the use of the JCW badge, and its not as if they are the first ones to do this

Rakey · Jul 11th, 2006, 07:58 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by smartbomb

I guess the John Cooper Works name will continue. Although there will no longer be the Works development behind it. It may as well be called Jurgen Klinsmann autos ! I mean if there is no works why use the name ?
BMW/MINI seem to have struck again by buying a brand and then spitting out what bits they don't need.
If the market for MINI is still as strong as sales figures show, why close a place that sells them ?
I'm not going to argue the toss on this as it could go on forever !
Just that the way I see it is when MINI/BMW became involved money became a much bigger factor than just the cars.
At least Frank William still has his name on his cars, he got a good deal out the Germans ! They didn't manage to buy his name, his comapny and dump him !

errr, what about the use of the name Cooper on a mini/MINI?

It was sold off along time ago, this is just the next phase of cashing in, and it certainly didn't stop people buying Coopers by the bucket load or the S when that was also sold on too

smartbomb · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:02 PM

Cooper has been on the backs of Rover and now MINI cars for years. What I was referring to was the Works versions. Which were developed by Cooper themsleves. If MINI produce the next model as a Works then it's not a John Cooper Works as the devlopment didn't take place there ! Its could be a MINI Cooper Oxford !

Rakey · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:05 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by smartbomb

Cooper has been on the backs of Rover and now MINI cars for years. What I was referring to was the Works versions. Which were developed by Cooper themsleves. If MINI produce the next model as a Works then it's not a John Cooper Works as the devlopment didn't take place there ! Its could be a MINI Cooper Oxford !

but originally the use of the word Cooper was to indicate that it was a mini/MINI that was developed/tuned by Cooper garages, but soon the use of this was sold on and it became a production model and no longer a tuned car, so the movement of the JCW badge is just the same

Hyper Active · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:15 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Rakey

but originally the use of the word Cooper was to indicate that it was a mini/MINI that was developed/tuned by Cooper garages, but soon the use of this was sold on and it became a production model and no longer a tuned car, so the movement of the JCW badge is just the same

Your argument only works (no pun intended) if Mike Cooper produces a new model above the existing JCW cooper S. If he doesn't then all the heritage from the past is lost, and mini enthusiasts will have lost something pressous.

supa-dupa-cooper · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:20 PM

i think its sad - kind of the end of an era

Joogle · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:23 PM

I think there is too much wild speculation going on now, no official statement of what is happening has been issued yet - so we are all just second guessing things.

Rather than going around in never ending circles maybe we should be thanking the JCW/JCG team for everything they have done for us Mini owners over the decades!
They are in an awful position tonight, please lets not make it any worse for them.

To any JCW/JCG folks out there many thanks, your work has become an iconic peice of British motoring history. Feel very proud of what you have acheived and know that the thoughts of the Mini/MINI community go with you.

Paul · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:24 PM

Are we assuming that John Cooper Garages alone developed the current S Works, or even the SPI/TIP tuning kits for the Mini's? I heard a rumour that the TPI kits were at least partly the product of people at Ricardo Engineering, and that BMW were not absent from the development of the Works. Not saying JCW didn't have an input (or even a major input, or even DID do the whole thing, the above are only heresay), but there's nothing to say "they" can't/wont have an input on future Works development either. If this is a case of the "JCW development team" moving in house with BMW, then it's not really changed that much surely, in fact that could make the new Works more of a "Works" model than the current.

It would be nice to have a "Cooper Heritage Centre" or something at least though, can't argue with that.

minirog · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:30 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Mullett

It would be nice to have a "Cooper Heritage Centre" or something at least though, can't argue with that.

Totally agree Paul - how do we get that off the ground then?

BTW, love the new avatar

smartbomb · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:31 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Rakey

but originally the use of the word Cooper was to indicate that it was a mini/MINI that was developed/tuned by Cooper garages, but soon the use of this was sold on and it became a production model and no longer a tuned car, so the movement of the JCW badge is just the same

True, just seems a shame that the Works is going the same way. Cooper leant his name to the car and now there will be no direct Cooper involvement in future Coopers.

Joogle · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:35 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by smartbomb

True, just seems a shame that the Works is going the same way. Cooper leant his name to the car and now there will be no direct Cooper involvement in future Coopers.

Were still second guessing whats going on.....

Paul · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:38 PM

All we know is the garage is closing, and that MINI (with Mike Cooper involved) will still produce and warrant John Cooper Works products.

SoggyCornFlakes · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:51 PM

It's only a garage closing down

Sure they did a good job fitting you JCW stuff but if they can't make a profit then they'll close - blaming a "motoring giant seeking help" is a bit reactionary surely, if it weren't for that "motoring giant" then maybe JCG would have closed a long time ago. As intimated in an earlier post it seems MC may be offering fitting options of kits elsewhere anyway- he's probably going to relocate the garage to India where the labours cheaper

Washy · Jul 11th, 2006, 08:53 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by SoggyCornFlakes

It's only a garage closing down

Sure they did a good job fitting you JCW stuff but if they can't make a profit then they'll close - blaming a "motoring giant seeking help" is a bit reactionary surely, if it weren't for that "motoring giant" then maybe JCG would have closed a long time ago. As intimated in an earlier post it seems MC may be offering fitting options of kits elsewhere anyway- he's probably going to relocate the garage to India where the labours cheaper

Wow a Hindustan works....

Jul 11th, 2006, 06:50 PM	#62 (permalink)
Rakey Four Candles? My Classifieds Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Hardware Shop Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 51,172 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by venox22 then it'd just an M mini, no Cooper heritage behind, which in my opinion is most of the reason behind people buying works conversions but didn't that start to happen back in the Rover days with the name Cooper been an every day model which was factory built? I see it as natural progression, just as John sold the use of his name to Rover, Mike has now sold the use of the John Cooper Works as well as the S to MINI/BMW, no difference. I am sure if they wanted they could produce a tuning kit for the JCW, and think of another term, which is pretty much how the Works started out to offer something over above what they had just sold to the manufacturer? But I think that Mike doesn't have the same kind of interest that John had in the mini/MINI and is basically taking the money and running. I mean there was a time that he actually owned an Aston rather than a MINI The only problem I have is knowing which one to drive?
http://www.mini2.com/forum/

Jul 11th, 2006, 07:56 PM	#67 (permalink)
Rakey Four Candles? My Classifieds Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Hardware Shop Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 51,172 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Tonyt3 ITs a bit presumptious to say he's 'taking the money and running'. Sure, he wont be a poor man, but I understand that its more to do with ill health caused by stress. Whether true or not, its a real shame. Mike has kept the company running well over the last few years, and maybe he doesnt feel the same connection as his father, but to me thats not a known fact, and I wouldnt speculate on the reasons for giving it all up, and I certainly wouldnt say 'take the money and run', I'm sure it breaks his heart to have to sack all the staff thats stuck with the company over the years. why is it? John took the money and ran, then he started doing S conversions, then he took the money again and the Works was added? This is no different, good luck to him I saw, I know I would probably have done a similar thing in Mikes shoes, but I can't stand to see people using this as a chance to bash BMW and blame them. Its not as if they had a gun to his head and made him sell the use of the JCW badge, and its not as if they are the first ones to do this The only problem I have is knowing which one to drive?

Jul 11th, 2006, 07:58 PM	#68 (permalink)
Rakey Four Candles? My Classifieds Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Hardware Shop Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 51,172 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by smartbomb I guess the John Cooper Works name will continue. Although there will no longer be the Works development behind it. It may as well be called Jurgen Klinsmann autos ! I mean if there is no works why use the name ? BMW/MINI seem to have struck again by buying a brand and then spitting out what bits they don't need. If the market for MINI is still as strong as sales figures show, why close a place that sells them ? I'm not going to argue the toss on this as it could go on forever ! Just that the way I see it is when MINI/BMW became involved money became a much bigger factor than just the cars. At least Frank William still has his name on his cars, he got a good deal out the Germans ! They didn't manage to buy his name, his comapny and dump him ! errr, what about the use of the name Cooper on a mini/MINI? It was sold off along time ago, this is just the next phase of cashing in, and it certainly didn't stop people buying Coopers by the bucket load or the S when that was also sold on too The only problem I have is knowing which one to drive?

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:05 PM	#70 (permalink)
Rakey Four Candles? My Classifieds Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Hardware Shop Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 51,172 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by smartbomb Cooper has been on the backs of Rover and now MINI cars for years. What I was referring to was the Works versions. Which were developed by Cooper themsleves. If MINI produce the next model as a Works then it's not a John Cooper Works as the devlopment didn't take place there ! Its could be a MINI Cooper Oxford ! but originally the use of the word Cooper was to indicate that it was a mini/MINI that was developed/tuned by Cooper garages, but soon the use of this was sold on and it became a production model and no longer a tuned car, so the movement of the JCW badge is just the same The only problem I have is knowing which one to drive?

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:20 PM	#72 (permalink)
supa-dupa-cooper In S Club Heaven!! Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Cloud MINI Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 20,504 Offline	i think its sad - kind of the end of an era Attached Thumbnails * The Italian Job 2008......Team 50 - Website Here!* UNION JACK OWNERS CLUB GB002

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Jul 11th, 2006, 04:31 PM	#61
smartbomb Bring the noise My Classifieds Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Trancentral Local Time: 01:41 AM Posts: 2,437 Offline	Well if my father had left a racing legacy I would have kept it running and not sold it !

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Jul 11th, 2006, 07:14 PM	#63 (permalink)
Tonyt3 Track addict Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Hants Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 6,260 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Rakey But I think that Mike doesn't have the same kind of interest that John had in the mini/MINI and is basically taking the money and running. I mean there was a time that he actually owned an Aston rather than a MINI ITs a bit presumptious to say he's 'taking the money and running'. Sure, he wont be a poor man, but I understand that its more to do with ill health caused by stress. Whether true or not, its a real shame. Mike has kept the company running well over the last few years, and maybe he doesnt feel the same connection as his father, but to me thats not a known fact, and I wouldnt speculate on the reasons for giving it all up, and I certainly wouldnt say 'take the money and run', I'm sure it breaks his heart to have to sack all the staff thats stuck with the company over the years.

Jul 11th, 2006, 07:32 PM	#64 (permalink)
timmydamini Li'l ol' wine drinker, me Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Cork Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 175 Offline	All I can say is: It's a sad day for the Mini community to see the company that started the Cooper tradition, close its doors. Best of luck to them, they'll be missed.

Jul 11th, 2006, 07:35 PM	#65 (permalink)
rentagas MINI2 Master Join Date: Mar 2004 Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 1,430 Offline	I think it's too early to say what will happen to the JCW brand/name. I was hoping that BMW would allow JCG to officially provide JCW upgrades over and above the JCW 210 (eg the JCW 225) once the new new mini runs of the production line. However I do think the JCG name on cars and the existence of a physical link between the new mini and classic mini was important. In may ways the involvement of John Cooper provided an evolutionary link between the cars. In some way my car and the great cars of the early 60's shared the same DNA. I appreciate that this has been coming for some time but my belief is that BMW/MINI have much to lose putting it's Granny in a home.

Jul 11th, 2006, 07:52 PM	#66 (permalink)
smartbomb Bring the noise My Classifieds Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Trancentral Local Time: 01:41 AM Posts: 2,437 Offline	I guess the John Cooper Works name will continue. Although there will no longer be the Works development behind it. It may as well be called Jurgen Klinsmann autos ! I mean if there is no works why use the name ? BMW/MINI seem to have struck again by buying a brand and then spitting out what bits they don't need. If the market for MINI is still as strong as sales figures show, why close a place that sells them ? I'm not going to argue the toss on this as it could go on forever ! Just that the way I see it is when MINI/BMW became involved money became a much bigger factor than just the cars. At least Frank William still has his name on his cars, he got a good deal out the Germans ! They didn't manage to buy his name, his comapny and dump him !

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:02 PM	#69 (permalink)
smartbomb Bring the noise My Classifieds Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Trancentral Local Time: 01:41 AM Posts: 2,437 Offline	Cooper has been on the backs of Rover and now MINI cars for years. What I was referring to was the Works versions. Which were developed by Cooper themsleves. If MINI produce the next model as a Works then it's not a John Cooper Works as the devlopment didn't take place there ! Its could be a MINI Cooper Oxford !

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:15 PM	#71 (permalink)
Hyper Active MINI2 Master Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Watford, Herts. UK Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 2,214 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Rakey but originally the use of the word Cooper was to indicate that it was a mini/MINI that was developed/tuned by Cooper garages, but soon the use of this was sold on and it became a production model and no longer a tuned car, so the movement of the JCW badge is just the same Your argument only works (no pun intended) if Mike Cooper produces a new model above the existing JCW cooper S. If he doesn't then all the heritage from the past is lost, and mini enthusiasts will have lost something pressous.

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:23 PM	#73 (permalink)
Joogle MINI2 Master Join Date: May 2006 Location: Midlands Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 915 Offline	I think there is too much wild speculation going on now, no official statement of what is happening has been issued yet - so we are all just second guessing things. Rather than going around in never ending circles maybe we should be thanking the JCW/JCG team for everything they have done for us Mini owners over the decades! They are in an awful position tonight, please lets not make it any worse for them. To any JCW/JCG folks out there many thanks, your work has become an iconic peice of British motoring history. Feel very proud of what you have acheived and know that the thoughts of the Mini/MINI community go with you.

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:24 PM	#74 (permalink)
Paul Trained Monkey My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Bedfordshire Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 41,274 Offline	Are we assuming that John Cooper Garages alone developed the current S Works, or even the SPI/TIP tuning kits for the Mini's? I heard a rumour that the TPI kits were at least partly the product of people at Ricardo Engineering, and that BMW were not absent from the development of the Works. Not saying JCW didn't have an input (or even a major input, or even DID do the whole thing, the above are only heresay), but there's nothing to say "they" can't/wont have an input on future Works development either. If this is a case of the "JCW development team" moving in house with BMW, then it's not really changed that much surely, in fact that could make the new Works more of a "Works" model than the current. It would be nice to have a "Cooper Heritage Centre" or something at least though, can't argue with that. There aint no party like my nana's tea party

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:30 PM	#75 (permalink)
minirog Hello :) Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Bristol Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 284 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Mullett It would be nice to have a "Cooper Heritage Centre" or something at least though, can't argue with that. Totally agree Paul - how do we get that off the ground then? BTW, love the new avatar

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:31 PM	#76 (permalink)
smartbomb Bring the noise My Classifieds Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Trancentral Local Time: 01:41 AM Posts: 2,437 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Rakey but originally the use of the word Cooper was to indicate that it was a mini/MINI that was developed/tuned by Cooper garages, but soon the use of this was sold on and it became a production model and no longer a tuned car, so the movement of the JCW badge is just the same True, just seems a shame that the Works is going the same way. Cooper leant his name to the car and now there will be no direct Cooper involvement in future Coopers.

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:35 PM	#77 (permalink)
Joogle MINI2 Master Join Date: May 2006 Location: Midlands Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 915 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by smartbomb True, just seems a shame that the Works is going the same way. Cooper leant his name to the car and now there will be no direct Cooper involvement in future Coopers. Were still second guessing whats going on.....

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:38 PM	#78 (permalink)
Paul Trained Monkey My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Bedfordshire Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 41,274 Offline	All we know is the garage is closing, and that MINI (with Mike Cooper involved) will still produce and warrant John Cooper Works products. There aint no party like my nana's tea party

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:51 PM	#79 (permalink)
SoggyCornFlakes Awwww %%%% it! My Classifieds Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Northampton Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 33,572 Offline	It's only a garage closing down Sure they did a good job fitting you JCW stuff but if they can't make a profit then they'll close - blaming a "motoring giant seeking help" is a bit reactionary surely, if it weren't for that "motoring giant" then maybe JCG would have closed a long time ago. As intimated in an earlier post it seems MC may be offering fitting options of kits elsewhere anyway- he's probably going to relocate the garage to India where the labours cheaper Cotswolds 6, you sixy thing you, come join the fun MINI2 Charity Ball 2009 ....... Global Moderator

Jul 11th, 2006, 08:53 PM	#80 (permalink)
Washy seventh heaven? Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: in the country Local Time: 02:41 AM Posts: 18,496 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by SoggyCornFlakes It's only a garage closing down Sure they did a good job fitting you JCW stuff but if they can't make a profit then they'll close - blaming a "motoring giant seeking help" is a bit reactionary surely, if it weren't for that "motoring giant" then maybe JCG would have closed a long time ago. As intimated in an earlier post it seems MC may be offering fitting options of kits elsewhere anyway- he's probably going to relocate the garage to India where the labours cheaper Wow a Hindustan works.... Black to the future....

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