Lift Off Oversteer

[JAMIE1131]

Does anyone with DSC know if it helps prevent lift off oversteer? From experience on a roundabout this morning ASC+T does nothing but flash the light on the dash! Are they any mods/tyres that help with this? I'm currently using dunlop run-flats.

[ZZTOP]

I suspect that it would help. I did an advanced driving course with MCS with DSC, and one test was like the Elk test that the Merc A class failed. With DSC off the car spun out, with it on, it kept on track, mine has ASC and would not do that.

I think DSC controls the throttle and individual brakes to stabilise the car, ASC is throttle only? Not sure about this though.

Lift off oversteer is inherent in a FWD car, one way to address it would be to put grippier tyres on the back? Not a great idea to have different tyres on back and front though. Dont forget, when a FWD is oversteering, its better to apply throttle to "pull" the car straight.

I think the best way is to go to the track and learn techniques to minimise over and understeer, and play with tyre pressures.

[Japper]

Quote: Originally Posted by JAMIE1131 (original)

Does anyone with DSC know if it helps prevent lift off oversteer? From experience on a roundabout this morning ASC+T does nothing but flash the light on the dash! Are they any mods/tyres that help with this? I'm currently using dunlop run-flats.

You've got lots of lift off oversteer!.........please tell me how, as i want more . The mini is set up pretty safe ( understeer ) and you have to be brutal to induce even mild oversteer.

Are you the first owner ?, if not maybe the previous owner fitted a stiffer rear anti roll bar.

Yes DSC would prevent this ( within the laws of physics anyway ) better than ASC. But ASC should stop this too.

[Root Ginger]

ASC+T can only reduce or cut power and apply brakes on individual wheels.
DSC can do the above and apply power too.

[mister.t]

If you switch the DSC right off, you should get lift off oversteer on demand. ASC should also control it, but it is known for very little intrusion until the last minute. But, DSC will act better.

[jongar]

I achieved major oversteer last week on the junction out of an industrial estate, prior to the ramp up to the M4 (here). I had turned the ASC off when unlocking boot for partner - a genuine mistake. Carried about 30mph into the turn (lights on green, overtaking at the same time) off throttle mid turn, major fish tail, and thankfully I planted the right foot into the carpet, the revs were high enough for the turbo to kick in and pull the car straight. Hugely entertaining, not going to repeat again unless on a track with loads of space and run off

[Japper]

Quote: Originally Posted by jongar (original)

I achieved major oversteer last week on the junction out of an industrial estate, prior to the ramp up to the M4 (here). I had turned the ASC off when unlocking boot for partner - a genuine mistake. Carried about 30mph into the turn (lights on green, overtaking at the same time) off throttle mid turn, major fish tail, and thankfully I planted the right foot into the carpet, the revs were high enough for the turbo to kick in and pull the car straight. Hugely entertaining, not going to repeat again unless on a track with loads of space and run off

This must have been diesel on the road or something. Either that or your cars are more entertaining than mine. I'm not saying the balance is bad, actually it's pretty good for road use but I wouldn't mind a little bit more oversteer on demand.

Then you get the Clio 197 that if anyone's drove one will know that the lift off oversteer is eye watering

[Paul]

From: http://www.mini2.com/forum/faq.php?f..._faq_terms_abs


DSC or Dynamic Stability Control is an expansion of ABS and ASC+T. DSC monitors lateral and longitudinal forces on the car as well as throttle and steering inputs from the driver and any wheel slippage. Thus it determines the intended trajectory of the car and compares it to its actual course. If necessary, it can adjust the dynamic attitude of the car by applying braking forces to individual wheels and controlling throttle inputs.

If it detects oversteer, DSC applies the brake to the outer front wheel. If the driver is already braking, the computer increases the braking pressure on this wheel and reduces the pressure on the inside wheels. In the case of understeer, DSC applies braking force to the rear wheel on the inside of the bend. If the driver has already started braking, the braking pressure on the wheel on the inside of the curve is increased, whilst the pressure on the outer wheels is reduced.

[Tonyt3]

Quote: Originally Posted by JAMIE1131 (original)

Does anyone with DSC know if it helps prevent lift off oversteer? From experience on a roundabout this morning ASC+T does nothing but flash the light on the dash! Are they any mods/tyres that help with this? I'm currently using dunlop run-flats.

Jamie,
Yes, the DSC would help with Lift Off Oversteer because it can rebalance the car with a dab of acceleration - not something you'd be able to do yourself as we are talking very quick applications - milliseconds.....

Quite literally Lift Off Oversteer is caused by lifting off the throttle mid corner. This can be very dangerous on the road as it can mean the car leaves the correct line and either falls off the road completely or puts you at greater risk of hitting oncoming vehicles. Panic reaction to lift off Oversteer probably causes the most accidents in front wheel drive cars driven by young people, as they dont have the expereince to deal with it.

Lift Off Oversteer can be great fun in the right conditions, but I would suggest you might want a lot of private road to play with or even a track.

So, in this day of 'nanny culture' driving aids, how can you best avoid Lift Off Oversteer if its really not what you want to experience? Well, you would be best to adjust your driving style. A professional driving course will show you how to drive your car rapidly on the public roads without putting yourself or others in danger. The same is true with track driving instruction. The idea is that you enter a corner at the correct speed (not too fast, which causes you to panic, lift off, and then over steer) for the corner. The throttle should then be constant until you can see the apex of the corner and see all of your exit from the corner. The throttle is then opened up so that you exit the corner faster.

So the rule is 'slow in-fast out'. The rule itself is misleading, because you are not actually slow in, you are at the correct speed in.

If you go into the corner too fast, it means you have to somehow scrub speed off, eeither by lifting off or even braking (DONT!)). This upsets the balance of the car and leads to the car wanting to go into lift off or even spin. On a track, eventually you learn that you can brake whilst cornering (although novices are told to only brake in a straight line) however on the road you nee dto be in control of the car at all times, so that you can avoid the innocent general public safely. You will have far more control of the car if you decelerate sufficiently before the corner and then maintain proper throttle control through and out of the corner than if you rush it and brake late..... and perversly, you will actually cover ground faster with this driving fashion than if you 'rush around' like so many other less experienced drivers do.

Do consider a track day with some instruction if you want to learn how to drive the car quickly but with less risk, or maybe even book professional road tuition. It seems quite expensive, but its well worth it.....

To all those of you who want to enduce a bit more lift off oversteer, please do this carefully and dont put others at risk. A few pounds extra pressue in the rear tyres would probably do the trick, but you should not do this on the public roads......

[Japper]

Tony,

Well put and totally correct. When i mention 'lift off oversteer' I was more referring to a slightly better balance of grip between front and rear and not a 'looning' around on public roads. I have and always have adjusted the tyre pressures in an attempt to fix this very problem.

Trail braking, if done correctly is also very effective on FWD cars.

I still don't understand why some members have had lurrid oversteer in a mini, unless it was either really wet or oil on the roads. Usually when it's wet and you enter a bend a little 'hot' you get major understeer ( cr*p runflats )

[Tonyt3]

Quote: Originally Posted by Japper (original)

.......Usually when it's wet and you enter a bend a little 'hot' you get major understeer ( cr*p runflats )

Ever tried it on a wet smooth track on slick tyres.....? You actually get all 4 tyres drifting out... way cool.... if a little scary at first.....

[Japper]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tonyt3 (original)

Ever tried it on a wet smooth track on slick tyres.....? You actually get all 4 tyres drifting out... way cool.... if a little scary at first.....

Had that once pulling onto a dual carriageway. A junction i used frequently, but this time it had recently rained after a dry spell and as usual I had the ASC+T turned off. Had to pull out quick from a standing start to flow into 60mph traffic coming down a hill.

Lets just say that i'm glad it was a dual carriageway width as i had to keep my foot in, but in doing so four wheel drifted straight into the outside lane. The only scary moment i've had in the mini.........thought i was running out of road, even with a bit of corrective lock

[ZZTOP]

I have a 03 MCS with 17" Toyo Proxes 4. It seems that as my tyres wear down, its easier to oversteer. When I tested an 05 JCW recently with newer Pirelli RFs, it felt very different to mine, i.e. more understeer.

On a few warm up laps at a local track, I got the car very sideways on a few corners, like a RWD drift, and it did not do anything creepy, I just gassed it and it straightened out...I guess my tyres have "learned" the way I drive and oblige when I ask? On a side note, I lapped that track quicker than a GTI V with DSG, and I was hounding a pack of Focus STs....I guess its more related to how willing you are to hammer your daily transport around a track?

Going to fit a set of 205x40x17 Toyo Semi slicks and see what it does to the lap time....and over/understeer.

As so well put above, the track is the only place to try these things out....curbs are solid things and $hit happens very fast....and expensively...and painfully.

[JAMIE1131]

Quote: Originally Posted by Japper (original)

You've got lots of lift off oversteer!.........please tell me how, as i want more . The mini is set up pretty safe ( understeer ) and you have to be brutal to induce even mild oversteer.

Are you the first owner ?, if not maybe the previous owner fitted a stiffer rear anti roll bar.

Yes DSC would prevent this ( within the laws of physics anyway ) better than ASC. But ASC should stop this too.

I have an R53 MCS which in my opinion is very well balanced. I induced the lift off oversteer this morning by going into a roundabout at about 25mph (50mph limit and on an empty road) in second gear with the throttle buried, just after the apex of the round about I lifted off sharply. The back end of the car swings out rapidly but is very easy to catch if you know what your doing and expecting it to happen, It can even be held with the back end out (only on the track) using quick applications of on-off throttle.

To be honest I did this on purpose to assess how the ASC+T reacted, I've just bought an Alfa 147 that has ASR but all that does is prevent wheel spin so I wanted to see the difference. The smallest things entertain us engineers for hours!

[Japper]

Quote: Originally Posted by JAMIE1131 (original)

I have an R53 MCS which in my opinion is very well balanced. I induced the lift off oversteer this morning by going into a roundabout at about 25mph (50mph limit and on an empty road) in second gear with the throttle buried, just after the apex of the round about I lifted off sharply. The back end of the car swings out rapidly but is very easy to catch if you know what your doing and expecting it to happen, It can even be held with the back end out (only on the track) using quick applications of on-off throttle.

To be honest I did this on purpose to assess how the ASC+T reacted, I've just bought an Alfa 147 that has ASR but all that does is prevent wheel spin so I wanted to see the difference. The smallest things entertain us engineers for hours!

When i get mine to step out it's so predictable and slow / easy to correct. Are you on run flats ?.

Maybe the front braces (x3) I have fitted has nailed the back end down too. Or maybe this being the shortest car i've had means that i'm oversteering more than i realise