Section 59 Police

[Ant FR]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINI Poser (original)

And since you left Primary School, don't you think they might have grown up and become wise? Hint

And as400....You give false details to an officer, say when they are writing out a ticket...Then that will REALLY screw up you day!

Can't beat the smell of disinfectant in the morning!

I'm talking about people from the 6th form and Uni. And yes they are people i am still in contact with.

[simeds]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ant FR (original)

I'm talking about people from the 6th form and Uni. And yes they are people i am still in contact with.

in which case they are in the top 2-5% of the population inteliigence wise,

ah ha !

[Ant FR]

Quote: Originally Posted by richhamer (original)

As a police officer I find this comment pretty offensive. Clearly everyone of us are exactly is exactly the same and your experience at school is all the proof needed of this. And I take it you checked your local forces clear up rate for burglary and rape before you made that post.

To answer the question, there isn't a form given to the driver for a S59 notice, but you should have an encounter form stating the notice being issued as the means of disposal. If you haven't I doubt you'll get out of it, but then I also doubt that the officer will actually put the notice onto PNC.

What part do you find so offensive in particular? Just read your first paragraph again and then you will see the irony of your statement. It only backs up my supposedly offensive comment further.

As for burglary in my area, the rate of succesful prosecutions has fallen by 15% in the last year. Reported crime may have fallen but as most people will tell you its due to peoples low confidence in the police ensuring that a lot more crimes are unreported. The police service as a whole needs a radical review. As if it carries on the way it is the public's respect for the police will decline even further. There already a joke as it is.

[super c00per]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ant FR (original)

What part do you find so offensive in particular? Just read your first paragraph again and then you will see the irony of your statement. It only backs up my supposedly offensive comment further.

As for burglary in my area, the rate of succesful prosecutions has fallen by 15% in the last year. Reported crime may have fallen but as most people will tell you its due to peoples low confidence in the police ensuring that a lot more crimes are unreported. The police service as a whole needs a radical review. As if it carries on the way it is the public's respect for the police will decline even further. There already a joke as it is.

Totally agree with you Ant!!! Well said!!

[MINI Poser]

Prosectuions are dealt with by the CPS.
We are "Investigatiors", not "Prosecuters"

Anyway. This topic is going a wee bit off track, so lets try and get it back to Section 59 Warnings.

Oh and I had a thought after reading this.

as400...If you give false details to the Police, and the insurance details don't match to the name you have given, well....thats an easy Section 165 and goodbye car!

[ItsNumptyBoy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ant FR (original)

What part do you find so offensive in particular? Just read your first paragraph again and then you will see the irony of your statement. It only backs up my supposedly offensive comment further.

There already a joke as it is.

Irony?? Quality!!!!!!

[KrGP]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tonyrec (original)

If the information in this post is both correct and factually accurate, iam surprised that a Section 59 order was given in these circumstances. There are other more appropriate ways to deal with this.
Is this the first time that you have been stopped - is there any history here that would 'force' the officer to deal with this this way?

Hello, yes first time stopped. He checked my driving history with the police, but found nothing on me. The LGV hadn't at the time of me coming on to the roundabout actually come on to the roundabout, he started to but stopped. The police car was behind the LGV.

Kris

[KrGP]

[
To answer the question, there isn't a form given to the driver for a S59 notice, but you should have an encounter form stating the notice being issued as the means of disposal. If you haven't I doubt you'll get out of it, but then I also doubt that the officer will actually put the notice onto PNC.[/quote]

Thank you for your response Richhammer.

As I said the officer didn't give me anything I have just been told it verbally.

Kris

[richhamer]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ant FR (original)

What part do you find so offensive in particular? Just read your first paragraph again and then you will see the irony of your statement. It only backs up my supposedly offensive comment further.

As for burglary in my area, the rate of succesful prosecutions has fallen by 15% in the last year. Reported crime may have fallen but as most people will tell you its due to peoples low confidence in the police ensuring that a lot more crimes are unreported. The police service as a whole needs a radical review. As if it carries on the way it is the public's respect for the police will decline even further. There already a joke as it is.

Well, taking an ill formed generalised opinion and passing it off as fact? Trying to suggest that all police officers are thick just because some kid at your school who went onto join the job wasn't the brightest in your opinion? What worthy job do you do that makes you so able to pass such superb judgements on everyone else?

Just to clear up another of the "facts" you state in your original post, you seem to think that police dream up legislation to hit targets. I must remember to do this myself. I have always been under the belief that the laws we enforce were passed by parliament but apparently you know different. And what exactly are my targets? I don't ever recall being given any target to threaten to seize a car. But again you know best.

What I do agree with is that the service needs a review. But that is out of the control of any police officer from Sir Ian Blair right down to the new probationer so until then we just do what our superiors ask of us. Very much like you I expect.

[richhamer]

Quote: Originally Posted by KrGP (original)

[
To answer the question, there isn't a form given to the driver for a S59 notice, but you should have an encounter form stating the notice being issued as the means of disposal. If you haven't I doubt you'll get out of it, but then I also doubt that the officer will actually put the notice onto PNC.

Thank you for your response Richhammer.

As I said the officer didn't give me anything I have just been told it verbally.

Kris[/quote]


Thats definatly the case in the 2 forces I have served with. As I say I doubt it will be processed as from what you've described the punishment doesn't really fit the offence. What seems most likely to me is that he has suggested that you may want to have a look at your driving style and used the S59 as something to make you really think about the consequences. However, obviously he might process it so don't take the chance.

I must say though that as you describe it, it sounds like you haven't commited any offence but there are obviously other sides to every story and he obviously felt he saw something wrong.

[ItsNumptyBoy]

Quote: Originally Posted by richhamer (original)

What I do agree with is that the service needs a review. But that is out of the control of any police officer from Sir Ian Blair right down to the new probationer so until then we just do what our superiors ask of us. Very much like you I expect.

I disagree........in my opinion we are just political puppets, abused by one Home Secretary & Government then handed on for the next one to play God....sorry, Home Secretary with. Even the Chief Constables are effectively powerless, in real terms, to direct a Force's policies or priorities.

I do agree, however, that mythical targets as quoted by so many in a position of ignorance, are just that....myths.

[Ant FR]

Quote: Originally Posted by richhamer (original)

Well, taking an ill formed generalised opinion and passing it off as fact? Trying to suggest that all police officers are thick just because some kid at your school who went onto join the job wasn't the brightest in your opinion? What worthy job do you do that makes you so able to pass such superb judgements on everyone else?

Just to clear up another of the "facts" you state in your original post, you seem to think that police dream up legislation to hit targets. I must remember to do this myself. I have always been under the belief that the laws we enforce were passed by parliament but apparently you know different. And what exactly are my targets? I don't ever recall being given any target to threaten to seize a car. But again you know best.

What I do agree with is that the service needs a review. But that is out of the control of any police officer from Sir Ian Blair right down to the new probationer so until then we just do what our superiors ask of us. Very much like you I expect.

Oh great the old " We are just obeying orders" line. Have'nt we heard that somewhere before circa 1940's?

My job does not qualify me to make any superb judgements on everyone else, thats you whose said that. My only qualification to comment is as a good honest uk taxpayer. Iearn the right to commetn on the Police service or any other public servant. Oh and i love the way you've changed from taking offence at my statement only then to call it superb.

Don't talk to me about making generalisations because is'nt that something that the metropolitan police were found guilty a few years back? Making generalisations about certain groups of people?

I did'nt say the police made up legislation. As you and i both know the law is not black and white and open to interpretation. But the way the Police choose to use their powers under the acts and then go on to interpret it in their favour is what annoys me.

You think i am uneducated on the way the british Police and justice system works which i assure you i am not. Yes my opinion may be a little jaded as i saw a very good personal friend hounded by a corrupt team of police officers who were later suspended. Said friend had his life ruined, lost his partner , his job and was branded a nonce in the tabloid papers. All because 2 police officers could'nt be asked to do their job properly and find the real criminal and decided to try to stick it on him. But thats a seperate issue.

[richhamer]

Quote: Originally Posted by ItsNumptyBoy (original)

I disagree........in my opinion we are just political puppets, abused by one Home Secretary & Government then handed on for the next one to play God....sorry, Home Secretary with. Even the Chief Constables are effectively powerless, in real terms, to direct a Force's policies or priorities.

I do agree, however, that mythical targets as quoted by so many in a position of ignorance, are just that....myths.

I think we are thinking the same to be honest, you echo my opinion perfectly there, we need a review but any that happened would focus in the wrong areas

And the targets everyone knows so much about...Mine are exactly what most people would hope them to be: locking up criminals.

[ItsNumptyBoy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ant FR (original)

Yes my opinion may be a little jaded as i saw a very good personal friend hounded by a corrupt team of police officers who were later suspended. Said friend had his life ruined, lost his partner , his job and was branded a nonce in the tabloid papers. All because 2 police officers could'nt be asked to do their job properly and find the real criminal and decided to try to stick it on him. But thats a seperate issue.

You aint gonna find anyone here saying that inappropriate actions like that are anything other than unlawful, dishonest and disgraceful. I am glad to hear that the officers concerned were dealt with accordingly.....but, as you show here...the legacy of their appalling actions outlasts their careers........as a result, you show tendancies to judge people without knowing them, or the full facts of the their jobs......which to me is also wrong. I have genuine sympathy for your friend.

[ViscountCharles]

Gosh, this has gone more than a little off-topic, and I can't really see how having a debate on "us versus them", "police officers as revenue collectors" or "all coppers are bent - discuss" is really going to advance things (even if some of those topics are a consequence of misguided Government policy over the last ten years or more).

A few (hopefully *slightly* on-topic points, though.

Quote: Originally Posted by richhamer (original)

What seems most likely to me is that he has suggested that you may want to have a look at your driving style and used the S59 as something to make you really think about the consequences.

Whoa! That's *seriously* out of order. The officer already has the power to advise the motorist about his driving style; what he should not be doing - under any circumstances - is using a different procedure improperly to bring about a particular result. I have already indicated that the section 59 powers are there to deal with anti-social drivers; there is a completely different set of laws to deal with careless drivers. It would be unfortunate if the police were confusing the two, as a number of consequences could flow (for example, if the police choose to issue s59s instead of prosecuting careless driving, you'd see drivers on the road who should have been disqualified for careless driving; or if the Goverment decide that the s59 power is being abused, they could take it away - as may happen to local authorities and some of their RIPA powers).

Quote: Originally Posted by MINI Poser (original)

Prosectuions are dealt with by the CPS.
We are "Investigatiors", not "Prosecuters"

Very true (though sometimes "investigation" takes a back seat to "gather the minimum amount of evidence necessary, then hope for a confession in the PACE interview").

There's a real issue waiting in the wings, here - and that's the number of arrests that are not being turned into charges because of "precharge advice" from the CPS. I've seen some shockingly bad decisions as a result. Wind the clock back 20-30 years, when it was the desk sergeant's job to make the decision (usually an officer with a couple of decades' worth of experience behind him), before "charging standards", "guidelines" and policies, you'd get a whole lot more common sense than I see in operation nowadays. The courts are getting more and more nervous about leaving decisions to be made by police officers and prosecutors as a result - because they are seeing decisions made "in accordance with policy" rather than decisions made in accordance with common sense.

Quote: Originally Posted by Chilli21 (original)

Try pepipoo for this, great website and they will give you good advice

I'm not at all sure about that. Most of the legal advice given on the internet is worth exactly what you pay for it. Watch out for posts saying "IANAL, but ..." because they'll probably be wrong (there being a good reason why it takes 5+ years to train lawyers). And if someone isn't bright enough to say "IANAL", then they're almost certainly not bright enough to be worth listening to at all.

I've seen people waste hundreds (or thousands) of pounds contesting cases - or failing to contest them properly - because of advice given on internet forums. And one chap who conducted a campaign against speed cameras using the 'net was a convicted fraudster and had been declared a "vexatious litigant" by the High Court due to his time wasting with false claims down the years - yet he never pointed that out anywhere.

No, if you're in a spot of bother, best see someone who you know is properly trained (and insiured) to give you sound advice. Not some keyboard warrior.

Quote: Originally Posted by as400 (original)

Personally I never have my car registered at my home address and always give false details.

Quote: Originally Posted by MINI Poser (original)

as400...If you give false details to the Police, and the insurance details don't match to the name you have given, well....thats an easy Section 165 and goodbye car!

Stuff that. If he's LUCKY, it's a s165. Alongside a charge of "obstructing a police officer in the course of his duty".

But the police are well within their rights to charge (and usually do) attempting to pervert the course of justice when they catch people at this sort of thing. That's something that almost always carries with it a prison sentence. A word of advice to as400 - take soap-on-a-rope with you, that way you might avoid bending over in the showers.

And of course failing to have your car registered to your correct address is also a criminal offence.

IAAL btw, but I'm currently trying to dodge the work I *should* be doing right now