Mini In Denial?

[ProScot]

We are a driving school. We have 18 Mini Cooper D. The problem is that we were experiencing lots of clutch failures, one car is on it's 6th clutch at 74,000 miles (3 clutches in 1 year alone!). We have another on it's 3rd clutch at 43,000 miles and so on....

To begin with our clutches were replaced under "good will gesture" recently however Mini is no longer covering our clutches this way unless a fault can be identified.

Of course when my cars are stripped down there is signs of blueing on the dual mass fly wheel with hairline cracks, the plate is worn down to the (rivets or almost) mini say this is simply wear and tear. And the blueing is caused by heat build. In other words abuse or inappropriate use of the clutch!

The strange thing is when we had Punto's we got in excess of 70,000 miles out of a training school car and our fiesta and Peugeot diesels regularly achieved over 100,000 miles.

My driving instructors have all had further training, including an actual visit to mini workshops to see how the clutch operates etc and training notes on how to try and extend clutch life (supplied by myself).

BMW Customer Services have sent me a lovely letter denying that they are aware of any problem with premature wear on Mini clutches; yet the forums are full of complaints.

It is not happening on all of our cars, some have achieved 50,000 miles and are still on the same clutch. I went out to observe instructors to see if driving style was a factor, I can honestly say that it does not appear to be. Some of our instructors who are experiencing premature failures, never needed a clutch replacement with their previous vehicles, many going away at the end of there 3 years still on the original clutch with 90,000 miles or more.

Personally I think the clutch plates themselves are very soft, however the hairline cracks on the dual mass flywheel concerns me, mini say it is due to heat build up. I wonder if it is due to metal stress, perhaps caused by the dual mass flywheel operation?

Mini are simply burying their heads in the sand while I fork out over £1000 each time, I’ve spent over £4000 in clutch repairs in the last 6 weeks alone!

I am in the unique position of being able to assess the longevity of the clutches over a larger sample size.

There IS a problem, so what’s the next step?

[adam_Randell]

mines done 65k and the clutch has played up all throughout.

its been in several times (about 6 i think) but no one will replace it. it clunks and bangs when ever its in use and has recently started guddering.

[ProScot]

This is a very common Adam; the problems associated with clutches keeps appearing on all the mini forums. Owners just keep paying up for clutches that are regularly getting less than 30,000 miles due to their driving style. Despite many of them never experiencing premature clutch wear with previous vehicles they have owned. It's the same story, blue flywheel usually with signs of cracking due to heat and clutch plates worn down to the rivets. It looks like simple clutch abuse and incorrect technique, but "normal driving" can cause it. Sometimes a judder can be felt before the clutch fails during move off, a very high biting point is also a sign you are about to fork out in excess of £1300 for replacement!

We have some cars that are only getting 10 - 15K. I am getting nowhere with Mini customer services, so I am looking into what other options are me be available to me.

I was hoping for more support from the many owners who are experiencing problems or have experienced problems as a joint effort will be required, but perhaps I should shift this thread to the technical area.

With over 15 clutch and flywheel replacements in less than 3 years I have lots of experience not to mention invoices and paperwork.

[M.O.S]

I know someone r56 cooper d, new clutch at 11k... Doesn't thrash the car, doesn't sit in traffic all the time etc. He got a new clutch after a brief fight with mini under warranty.

The disadvantage you have is that your cars are used for learner drivers, who I suppose are heavier on the clutch than those with some experience. For this reason you're lucky to have got some clutches under warranty... Whether its right or not, the chances are mini will hide behind the fact its a driving school, and to be fair they'd probably have a good chance of winning in court.

I'm beginning to wonder whether the clutches are going the same way as brake pads. I've heard of several r56 fail with clutches - mainly due to the dual mass flywheel... The brake pads don't seem to last either - heard as low as 15k and about the highest for non motorway cars is a whopping 22k! I'm on 34.5k with about 6mm left on the factory fitted pads.

Read this: http://www.mini2.com/forum/first-gen...ml#post3746457
That may be of some help to you

[adam_Randell]

Quote: Originally Posted by ProScot (original)

This is a very common Adam; the problems associated with clutches keeps appearing on all the mini forums. Owners just keep paying up for clutches that are regularly getting less than 30,000 miles due to their driving style. Despite many of them never experiencing premature clutch wear with previous vehicles they have owned. It's the same story, blue flywheel usually with signs of cracking due to heat and clutch plates worn down to the rivets. It looks like simple clutch abuse and incorrect technique, but "normal driving" can cause it. Sometimes a judder can be felt before the clutch fails during move off, a very high biting point is also a sign you are about to fork out in excess of £1300 for replacement!

We have some cars that are only getting 10 - 15K. I am getting nowhere with Mini customer services, so I am looking into what other options are me be available to me.

I was hoping for more support from the many owners who are experiencing problems or have experienced problems as a joint effort will be required, but perhaps I should shift this thread to the technical area.

With over 15 clutch and flywheel replacements in less than 3 years I have lots of experience not to mention invoices and paperwork.

ut oh. i dont have £1300!

[Murker1991]

i tried getting a new clutch under warruntee, mine isnt totally gone its on its way out but they wouldnt do it under warruntee saying its wear and tear but speak to the dealer i bought the car from they said.. bit of a ****take if i have to take it back to birmingham from essex when theyll probably say no anyway

[ProScot]

Point taken M.O.S it is a sad fact that people assume that because it is a learner car it will experience extreme use and abuse. However instructors do not want to see their car abused any more than anyone else, it is their working vehicle, their livleyhood depends on it. Would you let me sit in your car, burning your clutch? I know you wouldn't.

What about that little 2yr old mini with 10,000 miles on the clock and one "carefull" owner who used high revs and excessive clutch slipping moving off, rested their foot on the clutch after changes, and jams the footbrake against the clutch during manoeuvres in the local supermarket carpark, replace under warranty?... the fact is do you truly know the history of any car?

If it was only driving school cars that had these problems I might have to accept that, but the fact is it is happening to drivers who "drive normally" also and it's happening too often.

As I said some of our instructors never needed a clutch replaced after 3 years of use and over 90,000 miles on their previous cars (non-mini), those same instructors are now experiencing clutch failure at less than 20K.

Something is not right here?

[dieselcooperman]

My advice would be refer to another dealer & take the new car business away from them: they're happy to take your money for the 10+ you buy new right?

Also just a suggestion but get approval to take the cars elsewhere for clutch replacement other than OE delaers: if they are not going to honour any issues with clutch then why give them £1ks worth or replacewment work?

My driver training vehicle got a 'flat refusal' then a 50/50 goodwill offer when I suspected a knackered clutch at <40k. I decided to bear with it & am now on 120k+ still with same one. Dual-mass flywheels are a problem & other marques have aftermarket kits taking the clutches back to a traditional type, partic VW with whom I have similar issues.

You don't state where you are, but name & shame your dealer: Jo public needs to know!

[M.O.S]

Quote: Originally Posted by ProScot (original)

Point taken M.O.S it is a sad fact that people assume that because it is a learner car it will experience extreme use and abuse. However instructors do not want to see their car abused any more than anyone else, it is their working vehicle, their livleyhood depends on it. Would you let me sit in your car, burning your clutch? I know you wouldn't.

What about that little 2yr old mini with 10,000 miles on the clock and one "carefull" owner who used high revs and excessive clutch slipping moving off, rested their foot on the clutch after changes, and jams the footbrake against the clutch during manoeuvres in the local supermarket carpark, replace under warranty?... the fact is do you truly know the history of any car?

If it was only driving school cars that had these problems I might have to accept that, but the fact is it is happening to drivers who "drive normally" also and it's happening too often.

As I said some of our instructors never needed a clutch replaced after 3 years of use and over 90,000 miles on their previous cars (non-mini), those same instructors are now experiencing clutch failure at less than 20K.

Something is not right here?

I'm not saying I agree with mini one bit, but thats what they'll turn round and say to you... They'll want to get out of paying up as quickly and easily as they can!

You can't prove how the used car has been driven at all, but as soon as a court finds out its a driving instructor car I'm sure you can understand they'll side with mini.

I wouldn't let you sit in my car burning the clutch, but not meaning to cause offence, but you are an individual 'small' person trying to fight big business - it never really works out. I'd keep complaining but if you're luck you may get a contribution from BMW...

How hard is it to remove your dual controls? May be worth whipping them off and going to another dealer...

It is a definite problem with the dual mass flywheel, infact I don't even know why they're fitted! However as many minis are going round without issues it'll be harder for you to get a nailed on result.

All the best and I really hope you get a result. All the topics on here should work in your favour so hopefully

[lcheese]

Hello this is the first time I have ever used a forum so I hope I'm doing it right! I recently had to pay £1740 to have my clutch and flywheel replaced, which included £40for the damaged part. I said I wanted to have it independtly inspected. I was told it was wear and tear and that it was my driving that had caused the damage. My mini cooper diesal is 2yrs old (March 08) and at the time of repair I had done 43,000.00 miles (mostly motorway driving). I have been driving for 27 years and have owned numerous manual cars. My last car, a ford focus, served me well for 5yrs with no problems whatsoever. The worst purchase of my life. Not sure where to go from here. I would like to see if I can recover the money I have had to pay out but reading the forums it doesn't sound too promising. Any suggestions?

[dooper]

I wrote to the customer services people - This was my letter.

RE: Warranty issue dispute of BMW MINI Cooper D clutch/dual mass flywheel.
Dear Customer Services Manager,
I am writing to you with regards to my MINI Cooper D (BF57 DLX). I purchased the car new from BMW Sytner, Birmingham. I have found the service so far to be of a very high standard and have found the staff to be professional, helpful and courteous at all times. The car itself is a joy as well as an experience to own, and up until now had been relatively trouble free.
However, on Monday the 12th of July, the car suffered from what can only be described as rapid and premature clutch failure. I say this because the car has only done approximately 33,000 miles (purchased from new in Sept 07). The car has been kept up to date with regards to the servicing needs as required by BMW MINI and has been carried out by BMW Sytner Birmingham as advised The type of driving I do is mainly long motorway journeys (hence the choice of the diesel variant). The car was booked in to be inspected in the 16th of July at BMW Sytner Birmingham, but the car was unable to arrive at the garage under its own power. The car therefore had to be towed to the garage and be rebooked for inspection and investigation on the 21st of July.
On making the initial booking, a variety of faults were reported such as: a loss of power, the engine revving at a higher rate in comparison to relative engine power, slight juddering, as well as the warning light on the dashboard being shown regarding the car lights.
I assumed, as most people would that a car purchased from new having only done approximately 33,000 (widely accepted as below average mileage), the issue that would be covered under the cast iron warranty that BMW Sytner Birmingham informed me of before purchasing the car. However, I received a call from BMW Services informing me that the clutch had been worn to the rivets in addition to thermal damage inflicted on the dual mass flywheel, DMF, (evident by bluing and cracks to the DMF. When asked what this could be attributed to I was informed that it could possibly be attributed to “driver error” possibly caused by “riding the clutch therefore would not be covered under the warranty.
I explained the types of journeys that I do in the car (mainly driving back from London to Birmingham and back again) hence the ‘riding of the clutch’ would not be possible. I was then told that it could be attributed to traffic congestion of both London and Birmingham and the nature of start/stop traffic. This I found to be an odd explanation of the premature and rapid wearing of clutch seeing as the BMW MINI has been designed as a city car, which is especially evident when you consider the START/STOP technology built into the car part of the BMW Efficient Dynamics Programme. Also, if city start/stop traffic had such an impact on the wearing of a clutch (when used correctly) than it would imply that the BMW MINI (was sold to me as a city car and not a grand tourer) would NOT be fit for purpose as sold.
The explanation that my car's malfunctions are caused by normal wear and tear or even worse abuse of the clutch due to driver error is ludicrous as I've only owned my car for three years, there are only 33,000 miles on the vehicle, and that I use the car for work—therefore, you can understand that I cannot afford to abuse something so important to my livelihood.
On inspection, the clutch was worn, but also there was damage to both the pressure plate as well as thermal damage to the DMF as stated.
Upon speaking to the technician who was looking at my car and when I enquired to the whether the parts had been tested for any defects and whether a report had been made. I was informed that neither had been carried out. The technician acknowledged the fact that the clutch appeared to have worn ‘rather quickly' and that in his experience, he 'doesn’t see it often’. Once again, I was informed that the clutch was ‘worn to the rivets due to wear and tear,’ needed to be replaced, and would not be covered under the warranty.

This raised a few concerns on my part, such as the apparent lack of investigation to the root cause of the rapid and premature wear (simply stating ‘driver error’ or ‘wear and tear’ should not suffice). Also, the thermal damage on the DMF posed some concern as I was informed that there had been issues with other BMW cars that are fitted with the DMF.
After ruling out ‘driver error’, ‘riding the clutch’ or ‘start/stop traffic conditions’ (I learned to drive and pass my test in a MINI Cooper and therefore am familiar with its requirements) I began to conduct research myself with regards to the rapid and premature wear of the clutch.
I have found that there appears to a potential issue with the DMF that was installed within my MINI COOPER D.
The information has come from the Valeo Technical Services Bulletin and can be found at:

http://www.valeoservice.com/data/mas...78.pdf?rnd=102

Many of the symptoms of a faulty DMF can be linked to what was reported and experienced by myself, with the result being the faulty DMF caused the rapid and premature wearing of the clutch plate and NOT ‘driver error‘, ‘riding the clutch’ or ‘start/stop traffic’ as I have been informed.
It also appears that as a BMW MINI owner that I am not alone in experiencing this problem. I have looked through BMW MINI forums and have found that other BMW MINI owners have had similar problems with premature and rapid clutch wear.
To resolve the problem I would appreciate my MINI Cooper Diesel (BF57 DLX) to have the faults fixed under warranty in its entirety without any const to myself as it is still well within the warranty period and it is evident that the cause of the fault was caused by the faulty DMF. I do not feel that I should have to pay an excess of £1600.00 to fix an issue in which no report or testing of the parts were carried out to locate the root cause.
BMW rightfully prides itself on its customer service and its “cast iron” warranty. I have never had any reason to doubt this and therefore hope that this issue can be resolved in the correct manner.
I look forward to hearing from you and to a prompt resolution of this problem.
I would be grateful if you could respond to this matter as both myself and the dealership BMW Sytner Birmingham would like this matter resolved as soon as possible.

Their Reply was - over the phone!

Sorry to hear about this. However, this is deemed as a wear and tear issue and will not be covered under warranty.

The technical service manager at your dealership will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have.

BMW are NOT aware of an issue with the Dual Mass Flywheel and therefore all the parts are deemed to be in working order and not due to component failure.


Right does anyone know - where do I stand on this now

They want me to pay upto £2000 for the clutch, DMF and labour - does that sound right?

[dooper]

In addtion

I have contacted other parties also regarding this issue.

Those contacted are

Trading Standards
Watchdog
The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders LTD (SMMT UK: Motor Industry Sustainability, Competitiveness, Legislation, Technology, Globalisation, Retail Distribution, Education)

I hope to hear from them soon and will keep this post updated.

[iain cooper]

very well composed letter Dooper and I understand how frustrating this is for you.

in fact I am considering buying a new dooper and your experience with BMW/Mini is making me think again !!

hope you get somewhere with your case and interested in outcome.

Iain

[dooper]

Hi Iain

I love my car - I think the MINI Cooper D is fantastic - infact Monday just gone a MINI Sales advisor from Sytner Birmigham called me up 'as a courtesy call (2 and a half years later) to ask how my car was going. He also mentioned oddly enough as to whether I'd be interested in the new MINI Countryman.

TBH - Hell YEAH!!! It looks awesome. Fantastic even.

However - would I spend my hard earned on another MINI? The answer is probably not.

It's very easy to say that it's just a 'one' off occurence and everyone else's MINI is fine - if that was the case then surely MINI should 'fix' this 'one-off' occurence as a gesture of goodwill?

Sadly no.

If you have any small issues MINI will happily fix them (I had a few regarding trim and electrics) but anything major that they can attribute to wear and tear - they will!!

I think that all in all buying the MINI would be a mistake - not because of the car but because of the lack of customer service you will recieve. It really is ****-poor. They will agree whole-heartedly with the Technician and will more than likely leave you hanging.

If you are considering it - I would scour every forum possible and look for the best dealer rather then simply the best deal.

Saying that - be extremely wary of the sales staff - they will promise you the moon - saying that the 'older cars had issues but not anymore' - once you have collected your car and once it has been in your possession for over 6 months - you'll find sales don't really care - they will be sympathetic - but that's all you're going to get.

I repeatedly get the answer ' I can't comment on that I'm afraid'

Personally I'd look in getting the new Citreon (I think?) DS or for full reliability - porbably go Japanese next time.

But no other car I've driven puts a smile on my face like the Dooper does.

It's a tough call.

[dooper]

Update

I have contacted Consumer Direct
Consumer Direct

And after explaining my case (they guy on the phone was taking it as a matter of fact until it clicked that I'd only had my car for two and a half and it has only done 33,000 miles).

He then gave me this advice :

Write a letter to BMW Dealership again (recorded deliv prefferable) including this information in the letter :

The sale of the car is Governed by the sales of good act 1979

The parts installed should be saticsfactory quality and fit for purpose and it is not reasonable for a clutch to fail at 33000 as I do motorway mileage, and that the problem should be repaired / replacement under my statuatory rights.

I will give yourselves 14 days to rectify problem.

If not I will have to seek legal advice.

Does anyone know how to write this better?

I'm reading about the Sales of good act 1979 - do you guys think it's a wasted cause?