[photon]

what do you mean? are they not shipping with bulbs? is the wiring gone?

i finally had the rear fogs enabled yesterday while having my state inspection service done. on the way home i followed an AUDI A6 with his rear fog enabled in broad daylight. go AUDI drivers

[Eric_Rowland]

Per the reports, US MINIs will ship with a blanking plate in the rear fog spot due to inconsistent laws in CA and OR (damn them...) Odds are the 'dealer install kit' will consist of a lense and programming to turn it on.
Petition MINI - ha! - I say we petition CA and OR - just who do they think they are?!

[photon]

that's very odd, since Oregon is one of the states which semi-permits ECE lighting equipment, i believe. i think the other is Washington state.

this was the issue from the beginning... MINIUSA said, "But, not all states permit them!", and we kept saying, "Yes, but, MOST do, and besides, the taillamp cluster is already SAE marked to be compliant with the US national lighting laws!"

[photon]

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/...5/735_108.html

look for:
"735-108-0070
Fog Lamps for Motor Vehicles and Trailers"

[Sejanus]

Why is CA a problem? I remember looking up the law on this when the matter first came up and there didn't seem to be a problem with having rear fogs in CA. The dealer certainly didn't balk at installing them.

[photon]

round #2. . .
if someone can find a copy of this report...
?

[photon]

ahh I see.
http://www.motoringfile.com/2004/05/...s_2005_changes

"Rear Fog Light will be blanked off with a plastic insert as the position of the light is not legal in CA or OR. MINI is recommending a dealer-installed accessory kit for persons who have a need for a rear fog light"

[dr61]

Very strange. We just purchased a 2004 California-spec Volvo XC70 with a rear fog light (a single light).

Our Porsche Boxster (2002) and now sold 2000 Volvo also have single rear fog lights.

Dave
2005 MCS on order (with rear fog light option).

[stryder]

There's two options:

1. MINI Doesn't know what they're talking about, and is yet again using the 'its illegal somewhere' excuse to avoid doing something they don't want to do, clearly they're trying to justify themselves by pointing out the specific states

2. Something in CA and OR's laws allows the rear fogs high up on the side of the car (where they are now) but not one single one low. It does seem like they could require it to be a certain height above the ground or something, but I'm not sure. I'll see if I can get my law school friend to search for the specific statute.

[gone_motoring]

ahhhh, to live in Kentucky...where apparently anytype of lighting goes!

[photon]

they're probably just imagining laws again. after all, we did have to help them realize their own rear fog cluster was street legal

i already talked to Daniel Stern about this. he says he hasn't specifically researched OR and CA rear fog laws, but, that it's possible the _placement_ of the lamp is the problem.

in any case, with all the ricers in california running blue side markers and HID ballasts shoved into 9004 lamps, a little rear fog being enabled shouldn't cause too much concern

[stryder]

Got the friend to find the relevant laws, here's CA's : http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=24600-24616 scroll to 24602, or i'm quoting it:

Quote:

24602. (a) Any vehicle may be equipped with not more than two red
fog taillamps mounted on the rear which may be lighted, in addition
to the required taillamps, only when atmospheric conditions, such as
fog, rain, snow, smoke, or dust, reduce the daytime or nighttime
visibility of other vehicles to less than 500 feet.
(b) Such lamps shall be installed as follows:
(1) When two lamps are installed, one shall be mounted at the left
side and one at the right side at the same level and as close as
practical to the sides. When one lamp is installed, it shall be as
close as practical to the left side.
(2) The lamps shall be mounted not lower than 15 inches nor higher
than 60 inches.
(3) The edge of the lens of the lamp shall be no closer than four
inches from the edge of the lens of any stoplamp.
(4) The lamps shall be wired so they can be turned on only when
the headlamps are on and shall have a switch that allows them to be
turned off when the headlamps are on.
(5) A nonflashing amber pilot light which is lighted when the
lamps are turned on shall be mounted in a location readily visible to
the driver.

My guess on this one is the 15" requirement... It doesn't seem the rear fog is 15" off the ground anymore...

Onto OR: http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/...5/735_108.html (scroll to 735-108-0076 ) or quoted here:

Quote:

735-108-0076

Mounting, Wiring and Aiming of Rear Fog Lamps for Motor Vehicles and Trailers

(1) Transportation Safety adopts the mounting requirements for rear fog lamps as follows:

(a) If one lamp is installed, mount the lamp on the left side of the motor vehicle;

(b) If two lamps are installed, mount the lamps symmetrically around the rear centerline of the motor vehicle;

(c) Mount the lamps the same height above the level ground as taillights are mounted;

(d) Measure the mounting height from ground level to the center of the lens of the lamp; and

(e) Do not mount the lamps so they interfere with required motor vehicle lighting.

(2) Transportation Safety adopts the wiring requirements for motor vehicle rear fog lamps as follows:

(a) Rear fog lamps shall be wired so they can only come on when the motor vehicle low beam headlights are on;

(b) A switch shall be installed so rear fog lamps can be turned off or on leaving the low beam of the headlights on; and

(c) A steady burning indicator light shall be wired so it comes on when the rear fog lamps are turned on and mounted in a location it is readily visible to the driver.

(3) Transportation Safety adopts the aiming requirement for motor vehicle rear fog lamp through a horizontal angle from 45 degrees to the left and right of the center of the lamp.

Stat. Auth.: ORS 184.616 & ORS 816.230
Stats. Implemented: ORS 816.230
Hist.: DMV 3-1997, f. & cert. ef. 1-21-97

Well, a) seems to kill it. there's only one light, and its in the middle, not on the left. Blame your state all Oregonians.

So there's all the relevant info. any other thoughts?

[paulgraz]

Has anyone else with an 02 or 03 Mini tried to get the rear fogs activated lately?

I asked Princeton Mini to install them, was quoted ~$225 - $75 for the switch panel, $150 for labor to install the switch and program the computer. I said fine - next time the car is in.

Now the dealer just told me the price has doubled for the switch panel - now $150 - making the whole job $300. Unbelievable...

[Sejanus]

Quote: Originally Posted by stryder

Got the friend to find the relevant laws, here's CA's : http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=24600-24616 scroll to 24602, or i'm quoting it:
My guess on this one is the 15" requirement... It doesn't seem the rear fog is 15" off the ground anymore...
Onto OR: http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/...5/735_108.html (scroll to 735-108-0076 ) or quoted here:
Well, a) seems to kill it. there's only one light, and its in the middle, not on the left. Blame your state all Oregonians.

So there's all the relevant info. any other thoughts?

Huh? The rear fog lights are above the brake lights on both sides, not in the middle and they have to be nearly three feet from the ground and they're certainly more than 15" above the base of the car if that is where they are measuring from.

[tonjohn]

I'd like to see a petition for an Auto-Window-Up feature... especially since all BMW's have it...

[stryder]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sejanus

Huh? The rear fog lights are above the brake lights on both sides, not in the middle and they have to be nearly three feet from the ground and they're certainly more than 15" above the base of the car if that is where they are measuring from.

Not on the '05s... Which was the relevant part... Depending if you've noticed or not, MINI has moved the location (to where the reverse light was) and now its going to be a dealer installed item, because its not legal in CA or OR.

'02-'04 are fine and unrelated.

And as far as the current kit - $150 Labor? That's pretty insane, I think the instructions say it takes .5 hours. I highly doubt princeton MINI has a $300/hr labor rate. Maybe you should check with another dealer in NJ and see what they say.

[photon]

I think the instructions say 0.5 hour labor. I don't have my bill with me, but, I think I paid ~$150 parts+labor to enable my rear fogs at MINI of the Main Line.

[dr61]

For information: both my new 2004 Volvo XC70 and my Porsche Boxster have rear fogs activated by a separate switch. I believe the low beam headlights must be on for the fog lights to function. Our old 2000 V70XC also had the same setup. This is in California. We have severe fog problems here.

[stryder]

If you read the statute I posted, rear fogs are perfectly legal in CA, but there's requirements. For instance, there's 4), which is exactly how your rear fogs seem to work.

It seems like a simple case of MINI doing a design change, and then not really caring about all of the specific rules. It'd be nice if CA dealers could still sell the upgrade kit though, so if you wanted to use them 'at your own risk' it'd be allowed, we'll have to see I guess.

[Sejanus]

Quote: Originally Posted by stryder

Not on the '05s... Which was the relevant part... Depending if you've noticed or not, MINI has moved the location (to where the reverse light was) and now its going to be a dealer installed item, because its not legal in CA or OR.

'02-'04 are fine and unrelated.

Ah, I get it. I didn't realized they'd moved them. Daft thing to do. I wonder if you could get them to hook it up the old way on an '05?

As for the price, I paid less than $150 parts and labor at a dealership not known for being frugal with other people's money.