[mr.bill]

A prior thread mentioned the 2.0L 200HP RSX as competition for the Cooper S. Consumer Reports has a brief test on the RSX. Some comments are the car \"lacked crisp handling\" and the \"stiff and noisy ride can grow wearingly.\" The ride was \"stiff and choppy, and pavement bumps come through as hard, rubbery jolts. The highway ride is a bit unsettled too.\" \"The driving experience is also marred by considerable road and engine noise penetrating the cabin.\" They said the \"RSX is a semiluxury version of a very nice Honda Civic.\" It ran 0-60 in 7.3 sec and averaged 26MPG. They compared it to a Subaru Impreza WRX that did 0-60 in 6.2 and averaged 21MPG.

[MINIAC]

Quote:

On 11-11-2001 14:43 mr.bill wrote:
A prior thread mentioned the 2.0L 200HP RSX as competition for the Cooper S. Consumer Reports has a brief test on the RSX. Some comments are the car \"lacked crisp handling\" and the \"stiff and noisy ride can grow wearingly.\" The ride was \"stiff and choppy, and pavement bumps come through as hard, rubbery jolts. The highway ride is a bit unsettled too.\" \"The driving experience is also marred by considerable road and engine noise penetrating the cabin.\" They said the \"RSX is a semiluxury version of a very nice Honda Civic.\" It ran 0-60 in 7.3 sec and averaged 26MPG. They compared it to a Subaru Impreza WRX that did 0-60 in 6.2 and averaged 21MPG.

The <a href=\"http://www.hondacivictype-r.com\" target=\"_new\">Honda Civic Type-R</a> will be more in the MINI\'s class, but with a 200PS (197bhp) and 197Nm (146ft-lb) i-VTEC engine capable of 6.4 sec 0-60 and 146mph top-end. Less than 1,000 will be available in the UK the first year. Not sure if this thing is coming to the US, but if it is, I\'ll need a Works kit for my \'S\' to keep up |o

As far as looks go :r

<img src=\"http://209.132.49.149/images-large/2002_honda_civic_type_r-1.jpg\" height=450 width=600>

<img src=\"http://209.132.49.149/images-large/2002_honda_civic_type_r-2.jpg\" height=450 width=600>

[Jazzy Jase]

I don\'t think either of them will handle as well as the MINI.

The other thing about Honda\'s is you have to really rev the engines to get the power out of them and this can become very tiring. Great for track days though!

[MINIAC]

Quote:

The other thing about Honda\'s is you have to really rev the engines to get the power out of them and this can become very tiring. Great for track days though!

The VTEC engine has changed ... according to Auto Express:

Quote:

Those familiar with the current high-output VTEC engines will find using the new one an eerie experience. Unlike previous Type R units, the i-VTEC version delivers a generous helping of power throughout the rev range.

Rather than leaving you wondering where the performance has gone, it pulls cleanly from 1,500rpm, hauls strongly from 3,000rpm (where 90% of the torque is available) and goes ballistic at 6,000rpm. Overall, the Civic is smoother than the Integra and Accord.

[coolblue]

Quote:

On 11-11-2001 18:21 Cooper_S wrote:
I don\'t think either of them will handle as well as the MINI.

The other thing about Honda\'s is you have to really rev the engines to get the power out of them and this can become very tiring. Great for track days though!

Quote:

On 11-11-2001 18:21 Cooper_S wrote:
I don\'t think either of them will handle as well as the MINI.

as i currently own a honda, this is a subject of interest to me. personally, i love the Vtec engine, as well as the high redline. yes, HP is high at extreme rpm, but this is simply a derivitive of the torque, which relatively flat across the band. this is particularly particularly true on the newer i-Vtec.

as for the MINI, while the handling appears to be on par w/ most sporty cars currently on the market (and yes, i have seen no skidpad results, nor have i had any personal, first-hand experience with the car), the engine appears sub-par, requiring a supercharger to produce results similar to other, non-forced air induction models.

for me, handling and appearance are the MINI\'s trump cards. being american, 163 hp does seem lowish. hopefully, this will be offset by the relatively beefy available torque, the weight advantage, and the modifications i plan to make.

[Garfield]

About a month ago, I drove the Type S. Given what the car is designed for, I think it does well. Since I\'m used to, and prefer a stiff suspension, I loved the car. If I needed a practical but fun everyday driver, it would be in the top 3 of my choices. Given that I don\'t need a practical car, I\'d rather have something smaller, of course, I\'m coming from a Miata for a third car.
In the short 15 minutes I had the car, I was very impressed.
BTW, this is NOT a typical Honda/Acura engine. I found torque available early AND plentiful, which came as a surprise. Don\'t get me wrong, it\'s no forced induction or BMW straight six, but it definitely isn\'t as peaky as past fast Honda products.

Coolblue, while you acknowledged that you know the MINI will have torque, you fail to realize that the torque is what REALLY matters, not the horsepower (in this instance). For example, find me ONE other car that has 155lb ft + and weighs less than 2500 pounds. This is why I\'m still not believing the conservative 7.3 0-60 times. I have no doubt the \"S\" will embarass faster cars in rolling highway starts. (Which is exactly what driving my Audi allroad is like ;), I don\'t even have to downshift from SIXTH gear)

[andrea]

Hey,how did you get to drive an S? Could you keep fron spinning the front tyres on starting out aggressively?Inqireing minds want to know....

[coolblue]

i think i have a reasonable understanding of torque and horsepower and i agree, it is torque that is important. a car like the honda S2000 only produces peak torque of 153 lb-ft. it\'s max HP, 240, is derived from the extreme RPM at which it produces it\'s torque. 240 HP at 8300 RPM\'s works out to about 152 lb-ft of torque.

anyway as i understand it, and please feel free to correct me if wrong, if all other factors were the same (i.e. weight, gearing, etc.), a MINI S producing 162 lb-ft of torque would actually out accelerate an S2000 which produces 153 lb-ft.. the problem for the MINI is that while, in this scenario it would be able to accelerate more quickly, it would only be able to do this for a short time. the S2000 would be able to utilize it\'s longer powerband and ultimately come in ahead.

obviously, i am using a much simplified scenario and those interested strictly in 1/4 mile times should not be looking at a MINI in the first place. as such, i request noone lay into me too badly...


ps, for those who don\'t know and/or are interested:

HP = (torque x RPM)/5252 or
torque = (HP x 5252)/RPM

[andrea]

never mind,I thought you meant a cooper S!

[Jakx]

Quote:

On 12-11-2001 3:30 coolblue wrote: . . . . . the problem for the MINI is that while, in this scenario it would be able to accelerate more quickly, it would only be able to do this for a short time. the S2000 would be able to utilize it\'s longer powerband and ultimately come in ahead.

obviously, i am using a much simplified scenario and those interested strictly in 1/4 mile times should not be looking at a MINI in the first place. as such, i request noone lay into me too badly . . . . .

You don`t say how short a time it might out-accelerate the Honda !

My S2000 will get to 60mph in 5.6 secs and 100 in 14.3, the CivicType-R in 6.7 and 16.2.

Knowing that generally the power will get to the road more efficiently through rear wheel drive, I doubt the Cooper S will get close to the S2000`s acceleraton at any time.

Could be wrong?

Incidently, I had a 40 minute ride in the Type-R last week and my conclusion is that the S will have to be one heck of a car if it`s going to be able to out-gun that fearsome machine.

Again, could be wrong?

PS: To put the above times into some kind of perspective, the standard Cooper is tested at 60mph in 9.3 seconds and 100 in 28.4 ! !

[Hoganscrogan]

I\'ve also got an S2000 and recieved my Cooper last Weds - usually when I get back into the S2000 after driving another car I feels sooo good! Really direct and quick steering, great brakes and a great howl (airbox top removed) - however after putting 500 miles on the cooper last week I drove the honda and was unpleasantly supprised! Mini actually feels better to drive - steering is alot quicker - found myself having to wind more lock on in the honda thorough corners than I had been used to in the mini - great ride round the corner too. Biggest supprise however, is how good the Cooper is on the motor way - did london and back and felt relaxed and unfrazzled afterwards. Cruising at 80-90 mph in 5th - there is hardy any engine noise and only a slight russle of wind noise (NOT like the S2000) - compares well with my bosses Lexus LS430 I kid you not! The cooper is a VERY refined car, good stero too (CCD upgrade)
Now the S2000 is Honda\'s premium sports car so if the miini stacks up this well against it the Cooper S shouldn\'t have to much of a prob with \'lesser\' models.

NOTE: The Cooper will not tail slide, scream up a road at 150+ or fold it\'s roof down so the Honda is still be being used

[R1]

I have just come back from the Motorcycle show at the NEC Birmingham (UK) and Honda had a Civic type R on their stand. Had a good look round the car and sat inside. Very nice, but it didn\'t feel / look as well built as my MINI cooper. (I noticed this getting back in it to drive home) The body kit looks a bit \"add-on\". I thought about buying the Civic R over the cooper, but now I am even more shure I made the right choice. Anyway, you can\'t use a 200 BHP car fully on our roads unless you stick to dual tracks and motorways???!!!. Haven\'t had anything leave my cooper yet on A & B roads... and I haven\'t run it in yet.

ps. My cooper was the only MINI I saw in the car parks of the NEC on Friday. Had a few people looking round it before I had even got out of the car!!

[RickB]

The U.S.-market Civic R will have only 160hp, and the Cooper S should have a 100-150lb weight advantage. Everything I\'ve read about the S2000 paints it as peaky in the extreme, with nothing happening below 5000rpm. I can\'t believe the RSX can be all that torquey, as the peak is only 140lb., and the car weighs over 2700 (my Sentra SE-R had almost 140lb/ft, but weighed only 2400 lbs) - again, torque and weight advantage to the Cooper S.

[Ciaran Darcy]

I have read all of the above with interest, and there\'s one thing that gets me.

These days in England - you get a fast car and hardly even even get the chance to see what it does. I picked up my Mini from Dick Lovett, Bristol at approximately 5 pm. Anyone who knows Bristol will realise that I would have done my first 5 or 6 miles driving at about 1 mile an hour. I even get up and go out at about midnight for a drive and still end up behind some old biddy. All that aside....whats the argument above all about???

You\'re talking about Honda\'s for crissakes!!!

The Mini has more style, charisma and class in one of it\'s (metal - is anyone impressed by that?) valve caps than a Honda ever will.

The last decent Honda was the MkII Prelude and they even managed to make that look like a boring bug-eyed monster.

I can safely say that no matter what Honda put under the engine of the Civic - I mean what does the new one look like???? - I wouldn\'t be seen dead in one - and couldn\'t care less if it leaves me dead at the traffic lights - the less I see of it the better.

I could now crack jokes about Honda\'s being very popular in a country where people still tuck their jumpers in but I don\'t wanna destroy the special relationship between us.

[Jakx]

Quote:

On 14-11-2001 10:02 Ciaran Darcy wrote:
You\'re talking about Honda\'s for crissakes!!! . . . . . The Mini has more style, charisma and class in one of it\'s (metal - is anyone impressed by that?) valve caps than a Honda ever will.

Methinks Mr Darcy judges a damn good carriage solely by it`s fair trimmings.

The bounder quite obviously knows more about `metal valve caps` than the workings of the dang-fangled internal combustion engine.

No small wonder then, that he happily parades himself about the streets of Bristol at 1mph . . . . !

[coolblue]

Quote:

On 14-11-2001 10:02 Ciaran Darcy wrote:
I could now crack jokes about Honda\'s being very popular in a country where people still tuck their jumpers in but I don\'t wanna destroy the special relationship between us.

um, what\'s a jumper?

[SwissUser]

I have to admit I was harbouring thoughts of a Honda Civic Type R.

But:

I do not like the styling, (Get that gear stick!!!)
Its more expensive to buy and run,
Few after market performance items that are affordable.

The new i-vtec provides lower end torgue than the old VTEC and the chasis is excellent. But I feel that the MINI comes in with more fun points for the money.

If you look up what cars do 0-62MPH in under 7 secs, you will find the purchase cost is exponential. The cheapest and best is the S2000, but it is CHF 56\'000, the MINI Cooper S under CHF 30\'000 and you get two extra seats thrown in. (Albeit small). I believe the Subaru WSX does it in 6. something, and costs in the region of CHF 45\'000 +.

On the road it will be fun to see a twisty road head to head Cooper S Civic Type R. I think you will find the MINI compares well.

LONG LIVE THE NEW MINI........

[Hoganscrogan]

Ciaran to answer >>These days in England - you get a fast car and hardly even get the chance to see what it does<<<
I get plenty of chances on and off road to keep me happy!!! (Done my IAM so don\'t worry about the children).



http://homepage.mac.com/andrewsmith/.Pictures/Donut2.jpg

Can\'t wait to get the mini on an airfirld day to test it out. Steering is SOOO quick after the S2000 but front wheel drive is taking abit of adjusting too.

BTW the new Civic \'I believe\' has gone to cheaper, less advanced suspension compared to the old model which had double wishbones all round - most the car mags have commmented that it is not as good a drive as the old ones (type R\'s)

[Jakx]

OK! Hoganscrogan - I`ve seen that many times on mine too, especially driving through mainland Europe.

That equates to around 90mph - at the touch of a button!

Nice pic.

[Hoganscrogan]

Not Kph - Mph, see rev limiter - thats 9,000 rpm in 5th - video is available for confirmation :)

http://homepage.mac.com/andrewsmith/imovie.html