[djmcs]

Just wanted to let you know that I have spoken with people and have confirmed that this is only a US change (not even in Canada). Hardly an engineering improvement. More like a US change to make the ride softer.

This is not good news.

Thanks,
DJ

[squid]

On midwestern USA roads I test drove on,
the sport suspension was better than the
sport plus (the SSP bounced and shuddered
over bumpy corners, where the sport was
just supple).

I think the sport (base) suspension is
great for everyday driving.

If MINI offers a more supple, long travel
suspension for people who drive on even
rougher roads, or who would otherwise
drive Buicks if the MINI wasn't so cute,
it's not a problem for me. I wound't
buy it, but it's not a problem that they
offer it for others. I would
still choose the sport or sport plus.

I would really like a factory camber adjustment,
(like TC Kline of Ground Control make)
available, and for some sort of sport
package to include a Quaife limited
slip ; those aren't on the agenda yet,
not even at John Cooper Works.

[spanky]

This is big! Please sign the petition to tell MINI to keep all the cars same.

[Hankshanker]

Quote:

Originally posted by PigLick
Personally, I'm going to wait until some people who are familiar with the current setup have test-driven the new setup before signing. I know it's a long-shot, but it may be that the car handles just as well with the new setup, but has a softer ride. If that's the case, I have no problem with it. Of course, as I said, that's a long shot, as soft ride and handling seem to be pretty well diametrically opposed, but I still don't want to jump the gun until it is confirmed that there really is something to complain about.

PigLick

PigLick is not the only one reluctant to jump on this bandwagon. How can I possibly protest a modification that may indeed turn out to be a significant improvement? We current owners could just as easily start another petition to protest our inferior shock absorbers and demand a retrofit. Based on the information that MINI has provided, the rest of the world should be clammering for access to the superior ride and handling that have been reserved for the spoiled American market!

It's hard for me to believe that a test drive is sufficient to determine that a suspension is absolutely perfect under all conditions, including, for instance, having a 200-pound co-pilot and a boot full of golf equipment. It's also hard for me to believe that MINI would bother to make any changes without a substantial voice from owners. And it's easy for me to believe that BMW engineers know how to tune a tight suspension to remove the teeth-chattering jitters while driving over a series of railroad tracks.

I know I'm swimming against the tide here, but the reaction I'm seeing to this issue borders on hysteria. Every conclusion that the new specs will deteriorate the handling and ride characteristics is based purely on speculation. I will dare to speculate that, regarding the "jittery ride," annoying rattles and possibly even stress-cracked windshields, the number of complaints will plummet.

I guess I should mention that my '02 Cooper is tight, stiff, jittery... perfect.

[Spy Car]

What so we want the suspension optimized for driving our overweight golf buddies and a couple sets of clubs over train tracks?

Sounds like a job for a Buick.

[Casey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hankshanker
PigLick is not the only one reluctant to jump on this bandwagon. How can I possibly protest a modification that may indeed turn out to be a significant improvement? We current owners could just as easily start another petition to protest our inferior shock absorbers and demand a retrofit. Based on the information that MINI has provided, the rest of the world should be clammering for access to the superior ride and handling that have been reserved for the spoiled American market!

It's hard for me to believe that a test drive is sufficient to determine that a suspension is absolutely perfect under all conditions, including, for instance, having a 200-pound co-pilot and a boot full of golf equipment. It's also hard for me to believe that MINI would bother to make any changes without a substantial voice from owners. And it's easy for me to believe that BMW engineers know how to tune a tight suspension to remove the teeth-chattering jitters while driving over a series of railroad tracks.

I know I'm swimming against the tide here, but the reaction I'm seeing to this issue borders on hysteria. Every conclusion that the new specs will deteriorate the handling and ride characteristics is based purely on speculation. I will dare to speculate that, regarding the "jittery ride," annoying rattles and possibly even stress-cracked windshields, the number of complaints will plummet.

I guess I should mention that my '02 Cooper is tight, stiff, jittery... perfect.

Well I think the big point here is that we want our voice heard...it isn't so much protesting...but just informing them that there is alot of people that are more then happy with the current setup and feel that the effort shoudl be spent elsewhere to improve the car, like the software for the lurch, cracking windshield, never ending coolant leaks, rattles etc. What I don't understand is that in europe the cooper can be ordered with the Base suspension which is softer then the Sport Suspension and Sport Suspension Plus...so if people want a "softer" ride, then offer that to owners here.

Now if the changes do make improvements etc w/o ANY sacrafice to handling then it is no problem, but I do prefer to feel the road, I love that in the MINI. If it affects the handling it should be offered as an option, not a requirement.

Now what MINIUSA fails to realize that most of the very stiff/harsh ride that people complain about is due to the runflats...remove those and put on some nice high performance or normal all season tires and it will improve greatly while IMPROVING the handling etc of the car....and instead of new oil include a can of fixaflat. Now most people wouldn't want to not have a spare or runflats, but different tires could be an option.

I would love to see the figures of people that complained about the ride. What percentage of owners complained about it...and if MINI sampled others with this direct question to see if the people that didn't mention it didn't cuz they love it the way it is.

[Hankshanker]

I agree with Casey that it's important that our collective voice should be heard. I gather that's exactly what prompted MINI to modify the suspension in the first place. Some of those owners who complained about the jittery ride must be around here somewhere.

I guess my biggest issue is with passing judgment on a product sight unseen. This issue is so subjective and the difference will likely be so subtle, I think it's a little early for conclusive opinions. When I saw some of the comments on the message boards and in the petition, I was amazed at the impassioned objections to the "feel" of a new suspension that has not been driven by a single one of us. There's got to be some snickering around the water cooler over at MINI Division over this one. Can we really imagine a suspension without even the slightest room for improvement? If so, this would be unprecedented in the automotive industry. Is our sensitivity to the viscosity of shock absorber oil so acute that the slightest deviation from MINI's serendipitous perfect blend will send us running for a Ford Focus? Can you imagine if every enhancement were met with such a backlash? Our tires would still be made of wood!

I can understand how some may be put off because they were caught in the transition, but this whole idea of the MINI becoming "soft and mushy" is ludicrous to me. Do you really think BMW would pull such a stunt, O ye of little faith? If you're truly concerned about insufficient jitter, choose your tires carefully!

I say just wait and see, then decide. One man's go-cart is another man's rattle trap.

[stefan]

Do the softened shocks affect both the Cooper and Cooper S -- or just the base Cooper?

[Paul]

Quote:

Originally posted by stefan
Do the softened shocks affect both the Cooper and Cooper S -- or just the base Cooper?

Interestingly (but it could be wrong) the emails I got from MINI Communications only mentioned the Cooper S.

I am still awaiting further clarification.

[RUKnight]

I signed the petition as well as called Miniusa this morning. I was informed that it was a lighter oil which would in fact give it a softer ride over expansion joints and washboard surfaces. Needless to say I'm placing my order today after work but I'm still upset about this.

I drove a MCS with 17's over some very rough rode's on ym test drive and didn't think it was overly harsh, now if this new suspension is to soft I'll be upgrading that as well and that is something I didn't want and was one of the reasons I chose a MCS, because of it's amzing handling and moddability. Hopefully Miniusa isn't fibbing when they tell us handlig won't be effected...time will tell
Mike

[Spy Car]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hankshanker

this whole idea of the MINI becoming "soft and mushy" is ludicrous to me. Do you really think BMW would pull such a stunt, O ye of little faith?.

From what I understand this is exactly what happened with the "Americanized" 3 series BMWs.

And I know suspension softening ruined the VW GTI, so I believe there is "reasonable" cause for concern.

[xplode]

you can take the wait-and-see approach if you want, feel free. me? i prefer to let them know how i feel, because they appear to have gone to work quite hard on this more or less in a knee-jerk fashion based on feeble feedback. it seems there are a lot of people who agree, who feel this isn't infact a problem. we're letting them know.

so no, we're not saying the new mushy suspension is crap (because, as you say, we haven't tested it). we're saying we're worried they're solving a problem that isn't there. we're voicing a concern.

i feel, personally, that if there was a problem with the suspension MINI/BWM in the UK should be solving this. the simple fact that MINIUSA is working on this on their own, for the american market only, is what's worrying. it tells me they're under the impression the american MINIs should be plusher because that's what the americans want. i don't want MINIUSA to have that impression, hence the petition.

also, as someone (you?) pointed out, there could just as easily be a petition to make the ride plushier, or to make all MINIs have the new and supposedly improved MINIUSA suspension, etc. the fact is, there is no such petition. no one has wanted to make that point or send that message (so far)...

[Hankshanker]

Quote:

Originally posted by Spy Car
From what I understand this is exactly what happened with the "Americanized" 3 series BMWs.

Perhaps all the more reason to believe that the same mistake will not be repeated? Maybe I'm being overly optimistic about MINI's ability to satisfy its market. I'm so glad I ordered those rose-colored glasses.

I think the biggest mistake MINI is making is not in the engineering, which of course is an unknown at this point, but in public relations. As I said, I can understand being upset about ordering one set of specs but getting another. It seems a reasonable compromise would have been to deliver on the specs of current orders, then gradually phasing in the new suspension to ensure an "informed" buyer. Unfortunatley, current owners are only left with the option of rejecting the car if they find the new suspension truly unacceptable (assuming that MINI will indeed allow this with little or no penalty).

I suspect, however, that the vast majority of new owners will find their new MINI to be a joy to drive. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to find out.

[Spy Car]

Well said xplode!

Hankshanker, you may have to change your member name to Pangloss

I hope your optimism proves this is the best suspension, in the best car, improved for the best reasons, for the citizens of the best country, in this best of all possile worlds

[Hankshanker]

Quote:

Originally posted by Spy Car
Well said xplode!

Hankshanker, you may have to change your member name to Pangloss

I hope your optimism proves this is the best suspension, in the best car, improved for the best reasons, for the citizens of the best country, in this best of all possile worlds

Ha! I had to do a quick internet search on that one, Spy Car. The page has been bookmarked, thank you very much.

Here's one:
If the great Dr. Pangloss were here, he might say something of the sort:
You can't always get what you want. But if you try, sometimes you'll find what you need.
-Rolling Stones

OK, maybe I'm tiring of trying to put new owners at ease over their grotesquely pillowy suspensions. I do hope motoring bliss is the destiny of all. I shall now don my rose-colored spectacles and go motoring over many rail crossings, pot-holes and dry creek beds, smugly dancing about inside my Cooper's cockpit, oblivious to the suspension woes of the world.

[xplode]

just pointing everyone to this thread, which basically adds the following information:

- the change affects all MINIs, not just MCS.

- the change affects all MINIs, not just US.

that makes me feel a lot better, finally. turns out american MINIs are not being singled out.

[PigLick]

Glad to see that info xplode, because this whole time I've been wondering exactly why it was everyone assumed this was a US thing only? I suppose because it was announced by Jack Pitney, head of MINI USA, and (I assume) wasn't mentioned by anyone from MINI in any other country. However, nowhere in the info I've seen did it say anything about it being specific to the US/NA. In fact, the only indication given was at the beginning of the news report, which said that BMW is making the change, not that MINI USA is doing so. However, since the report was American and targeting an American audience, it then went on to give info and statements from Jack Pitney and geared toward US readers.

People are throwing around the term "knee-jerk" reaction, but so far the only knee-jerk reactions seem to be from internet message board users, and not from BMW or MINI

PigLick

[Spy Car]

Do you think that without what you term a "knee-jerk" reaction that we would have received ANY clarification on the shock "improvement" from MINI/MINIUSA?

As it is all that people with cars on order have to go on is the "reassurance" of MINI that the new set up IS an improvement. Time will tell. I sincerly hope that the news shocks are an improvement. But there have been no objective (or subjective) evaluations of the shocks made to the public. Why not? If they are better shouldn't this have been a marketing triumph? Something MINI could boast about and demonstrate?

I also regret that as MINI owner I have to be seen as "over-reacting". This is not the relationship I would care to have with MINI. I think their cars are brilliant! But it is just plain dumb for them to keep people in the dark, especially on an issue that COULD profoundly alter the nature of the ride. It has happened on other cars.

If the worst that comes of the so-called "knee-jerk" response is that MINI understands we DON"T want the handling comprimised for a "softer ride" the response was worthwhile. They did get the message, right?

Hopefully they learn that it is better to communicate and inform the MINI community of planned "improvents" rather than have them stumble out in such a clumsy fashion.

People with "better" shocks on order should be gloating now (not sitting around worried they were getting a dumbed-down set up). How hard would it have been to show off the shocks in advance?

Rant over

[PigLick]

I agree about the comunication and marketing, but rather than complaining, assuming, and starting petitions to change things that no one has even tested yet, it seems a more reasonable reaction, which some people did do, would be just to ask questions and state concerns. Would we still have received the information/feedback from MINI? No one can say, but I believe so.

How many other improvements have been made to this car since launch? Have we gotten any sort of subjective information on any of them? Why should this one be any different, if it truly is an improvement? I'm as concerned as the next guy about what they've done to the shocks, but the change is made, so at this point the best move is to continue asking for more information, and calmly reserving judgement until someone can subjectively test the change, and then decide how to go about things.

PigLick

[Hankshanker]

Quote:

Originally posted by Spy Car
...If the worst that comes of the so-called "knee-jerk" response is that MINI understands we DON"T want the handling comprimised for a "softer ride" the response was worthwhile. They did get the message, right?

Hopefully they learn that it is better to communicate and inform the MINI community of planned "improvents" rather than have them stumble out in such a clumsy fashion...

At least Spy Car is addressing one of the genuine issues, which has to do with MINI's "clumsy" introduction of the modified suspension. Am I correct in that it was first publicized by Jack Pitney's interview in a newspaper article implicating J.D. Power's IQS? If so, then Pitney may have miscalculated the significance his terse and possibly off-hand remarks would have in the minds of current and future owners.

I just think that people are jumping to unjustifiable conclusions about how the new suspension will feel and whether or not they will prefer it. MINI is insisting that handling has not been compromised, but even that is an unknown as far as we're concerned. The "feel" of a suspension is such a subjective matter, it just makes no sense to me to reject the modification based on the comments of a car company's general manager.

On the other hand, I also think that MINI is making a mistake by surprising customers with specs other than the those that they ordered. To deny them at least a choice is a little heavy-handed. This is obviously a tactical mistake by a company that should be very sensitive to the performance expectations of its clientele.

Yes, the message should be clear to the good folks at MINI. When they notice the confusion and mayhem they have caused over this issue, they may not trip over their own feet the next time they "improve" their product.