MINI2

dietcokeplease · May 22nd, 2003, 02:39 AM

One of the recent car mags - not sure which one as I subscribe to so many were shocked by the appalling fuel consumption of a CVT. They thought that they had a lemon, but found it was the same in another car.

I've not driven a CVT MINI, but I have driven other CVT cars and I'd have to say that a "normal" auto is much better.

smiffy · May 22nd, 2003, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dietcokeplease
One of the recent car mags - not sure which one as I subscribe to so many were shocked by the appalling fuel consumption of a CVT. They thought that they had a lemon, but found it was the same in another car.

Autocar

Liam"S" · May 22nd, 2003, 02:53 AM

This also opens up the option for dissabled petrol heads to drive a MCS don't think my colleague could fit his wheel chair in the back though.

acetonic · May 22nd, 2003, 04:27 AM

I get about 29 mpg (US) city and 35mpg hwy in my CVT. I have an after market air filter and exhaust, got about 2mpg less before I put them in. I've had no trouble keeping up with the 5 and 6 speeds on the twisty mountain roads. The CVT is no drag racer, but then again, no MINI is. (which is OK because drag racing is the lowest form of motorsport)

cooper4us · May 22nd, 2003, 04:43 AM

Our 9 month old 2002 Cooper CVT has been fantastic. We are also very happy with the fuel economy and performance. We are getting 34+ MPG in the highway @ 70MPH with cruise control on roadtrips (Average distance is 600 miles roundtrip). We drive from Miami to Daytona Beach and use less than half a tank of gas (One way distance is 290 miles) which is incredible. Like any car if you go easy on the gas pedal you can expect lower or higher fuel economy. Driving habits as well as proper maintenance of tire air pressures play an important role.

The CVT seems to generate a lot of contempt from non-CVT owners and I still fail to see why. This is a great transmission, unlike any other slushbox sold in the US market. I haven't had any problems obtaining neck snapping acceleration in either Sport or Steptronic modes. The car has excellent passing power and unlike the manual transmission models, the cruise control is capable of maintaining the set speed in road inclinations with no fuss.

The CVT affords a great alternative to the clutch pedal. the CVT is a misunderstood transmission that requires skill and technique to get the best out of. Unfortunately MINI doesn't seem to be effective at promoting the wonderful virtues this masterpiece of automotive technology can offer. Just read the owner's manual to see what I mean on the chapter about the CVT.

The CVT offers a great deal of potential and any of the problems that have been posted in this site and elsewhere, ad naseum, are more the by product of assembly line and quality control mistakes (Like the wrong oil viscosity in some early '03 CVTs) and the ongoing problems with the software updates that in reality have nothing to do with the engineering and design that went into the ZF CVT transmission.

Let's give the CVT its rightful place. I appreciate Paul passing out these technical figures but the CVT bashing is quite frankly getting a bit old and overcooked.

cooper4us · May 22nd, 2003, 05:14 AM

Ask the folks at Diamond Racing. They are currently developing aftermarket mods for the Cooper CVT.

Shep · May 22nd, 2003, 05:29 AM

Gas consumption First, at least here in this land of crazy, irresponsible gas-guzzlers, the worst Mini is so far ahead that it doesn't matter.
Second, ALL automatics have historically had worse mileage than manuals, and lower acceleration. The CVT in theory can change that as designs improve, but it clearly isn't there yet.

Acceleration Some comparative data puts this in perspective:
0 to 60 mph:
1959 Morris Mini Minor deluxe: 26.5 seconds
1965 Austin Mini Cooper: 16.8 seconds
1963 Morris Mini Cooper S 1071cc: 13.5 seconds
1964 Morris Mini Cooper S 1275cc: 11.2 seconds
(source: Autocar tests in those years)

The "humble" CVT is faster than the fabled top-speed 76 hp Cooper S of the 60's.

The CVT is 1.2 secs slower than the manual. I'll bet most of that is transient "hesistation" right at the start.

How to get the best from CVT. Run it in SD mode. That keeps it at 3000 rpm instead of 2000 rpm. Much quicker and more fun response. Both hands on the wheel round the corners.

I like my CVT !

Minimom · May 22nd, 2003, 05:46 AM

I've had the CVT since September and have to admit I never even used the steptronic mode until driving the Dragon. The caravan up to the Dragon was intimidating but I was able to keep up with all the S's and regular sticks. For the first time I also got 34mph. Being a woman driver with a CVT, I was able to take all the curves and speediness of all the guys out there and was very proud of my CVT! I've never regretted not getting a stick. I lived in Los Angeles for 11 years driving a CRX through traffic and got very tired of shifting gears. My CVT gives me the best of both worlds and it is plenty fast enough for me! I do wish I could continue getting the 34 mph though. Most of the time I only get around 27-28.

Paul · May 22nd, 2003, 07:07 AM

One thing I'm surprised about is the highly defensive attitude coming across from the CVT owners here. I didn't want to get any backs up with the title of the thread, just attention (I guess it's half worked!).

I've not really seen the CVT bashing that's being spoken about here? I know that people are saying that the 'S' should never be offered in CVT "because...", in the future variants forum, but so far as I can see in this thread, there's not really any 'bashing' of the MINI auto going on. Also, I wouldn't want to see any MINI owner holding any contempt against a CVT MINI, just because it's not a manual, that's just silly!

Every different MINI serves a different set of needs perfectly.

They can all be improved, and they can all be enjoyed just as they are.

dietcokeplease · May 22nd, 2003, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cooper4us
The CVT seems to generate a lot of contempt from non-CVT owners and I still fail to see why.

I think this is a cultural thing in the UK. Most people learn to drive in stick-shift and remain with stick-shift cars. Most of my friends who ocassionally drive an automatic/CVT complain of a "loss of control feeling".

Quote:

Let's give the CVT its rightful place. I appreciate Paul passing out these technical figures but the CVT bashing is quite frankly getting a bit old and overcooked.

No-one is "bashing" CVT. I'd love a CVT Diesel MINI as my commute car. I personally think that a normal automatic would have been a better choice for the MINI. I'm now driving an automatic MPV as my everyday car. In press-on driving, I find I still instinctively feel for the clutch pedal!

nonsequitur · Jun 5th, 2003, 10:52 AM

My recent three days of driving our CVT on the track did more to expose questions than provide answers to this debate.

I was not able to objectively test as intended because we couldn't stop on track to record 0-60, 1/4mile, or 60-0 data, but I was able to "run with" various auto brands, and Cooper manual, Cooper S manual, and a Cooper racecar. Direct comparison was easy. The MINI compares very favorably (It's Quick, not Fast in a straight line), and the CVT was right with the other MINIs, no lagging behind at all.

There are significant and important differences in CVT performance depending on mode selection (D, SD, Steptronic) and - just as important - Throttle Pedal position.

The Kickdown detent has some very important effect in software, and the CVT unit. It seems to accelerate quickest with the throttle pedal just shy of the detent (not the intuitive "to the floor" position I would expect most testers to use when comparing the cars).

I was able to repeatedly pull with the Cooper manual, and the Cooper racecar, all the way to the 110mph breakpoint for Turn 2. This was a "rolling start" off Turn 8, so not a 0-60 type comparison. 0-16mph in a MINI is not fast.

I would like to organize some Objective Testing with others in this area, because based on driving the car several hundred miles at speed, I don't trust the numbers being talked up now.

cooper4us · Jun 5th, 2003, 11:39 AM

Johnwald, great observations please keep 'em coming and if you have any suggestion for us CVT owners that live far away from Seattle, please let us know. Your findings are making the overall ownership of our Cooper CVT alot more interesting. Heck, the CVT is not your everyday slushbox and I am glad that MINI didn't spoil the car with some heavy and run of the mill 4-speed automatic.

RobFriedman · Jun 5th, 2003, 12:12 PM

hey the CVT aint that slushy... doesnt even have a torque converter! <grin>

but we drove it all over the White Mtns in New Hampshire AND drove it up Cathedral Ledge and DOWN... shifting to SD and Shiftronic mode.. and used it to have engine breaking coming down! Thats GREAT!! I was also looking at the Saturn ION Quad Coupe before we got the MINI.. it Also had a CVT. but no steptronic mode...

thie is a GREAT CAR..

I call this a Touring Car.. since I have the CVT, Premium Package, Cold Package , Sport Seats and Chrome Trim and All Pepper White.

May 22nd, 2003, 02:39 AM	#21
dietcokeplease Official MINI2 Fluffer Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Spearmint Rhino Local Time: 12:12 AM Posts: 5,261 Offline	One of the recent car mags - not sure which one as I subscribe to so many were shocked by the appalling fuel consumption of a CVT. They thought that they had a lemon, but found it was the same in another car. I've not driven a CVT MINI, but I have driven other CVT cars and I'd have to say that a "normal" auto is much better. There is just one moon and one golden sun; And a smile mean friendship to ev'ryone; Through the mountains divide, and the oceans are wide; It's a small world after all.

May 22nd, 2003, 02:45 AM	#22 (permalink)
smiffy MINI2 Master Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Here Local Time: 12:12 AM Posts: 5,718 Offline	Quote: Originally posted by dietcokeplease One of the recent car mags - not sure which one as I subscribe to so many were shocked by the appalling fuel consumption of a CVT. They thought that they had a lemon, but found it was the same in another car. Autocar S for Smiffy "Kids in the front seat cause accidents, accidents in the backseat cause kids!"

May 22nd, 2003, 02:53 AM	#23 (permalink)
Liam"S" MINI2 Regular Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sussex Local Time: 01:12 AM Posts: 131 Offline	This also opens up the option for dissabled petrol heads to drive a MCS don't think my colleague could fit his wheel chair in the back though. its all about the GG (or in this case the uhhh SCREW)

May 22nd, 2003, 04:43 AM	#25 (permalink)
cooper4us MINI2 Master Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Florida Local Time: 07:12 PM Posts: 1,423 Offline	Our 9 month old 2002 Cooper CVT has been fantastic. We are also very happy with the fuel economy and performance. We are getting 34+ MPG in the highway @ 70MPH with cruise control on roadtrips (Average distance is 600 miles roundtrip). We drive from Miami to Daytona Beach and use less than half a tank of gas (One way distance is 290 miles) which is incredible. Like any car if you go easy on the gas pedal you can expect lower or higher fuel economy. Driving habits as well as proper maintenance of tire air pressures play an important role. The CVT seems to generate a lot of contempt from non-CVT owners and I still fail to see why. This is a great transmission, unlike any other slushbox sold in the US market. I haven't had any problems obtaining neck snapping acceleration in either Sport or Steptronic modes. The car has excellent passing power and unlike the manual transmission models, the cruise control is capable of maintaining the set speed in road inclinations with no fuss. The CVT affords a great alternative to the clutch pedal. the CVT is a misunderstood transmission that requires skill and technique to get the best out of. Unfortunately MINI doesn't seem to be effective at promoting the wonderful virtues this masterpiece of automotive technology can offer. Just read the owner's manual to see what I mean on the chapter about the CVT. The CVT offers a great deal of potential and any of the problems that have been posted in this site and elsewhere, ad naseum, are more the by product of assembly line and quality control mistakes (Like the wrong oil viscosity in some early '03 CVTs) and the ongoing problems with the software updates that in reality have nothing to do with the engineering and design that went into the ZF CVT transmission. Let's give the CVT its rightful place. I appreciate Paul passing out these technical figures but the CVT bashing is quite frankly getting a bit old and overcooked. '02 MINI Cooper CVT On Order: 2004 MCS (Est production date: 9/5/03)

May 22nd, 2003, 05:14 AM	#26 (permalink)
cooper4us MINI2 Master Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Florida Local Time: 07:12 PM Posts: 1,423 Offline	Ask the folks at Diamond Racing. They are currently developing aftermarket mods for the Cooper CVT. '02 MINI Cooper CVT On Order: 2004 MCS (Est production date: 9/5/03)

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May 22nd, 2003, 04:27 AM	#24 (permalink)
acetonic MINI2 Regular Join Date: May 2002 Location: New Castle, Delaware Local Time: 08:12 PM Posts: 288 Offline	I get about 29 mpg (US) city and 35mpg hwy in my CVT. I have an after market air filter and exhaust, got about 2mpg less before I put them in. I've had no trouble keeping up with the 5 and 6 speeds on the twisty mountain roads. The CVT is no drag racer, but then again, no MINI is. (which is OK because drag racing is the lowest form of motorsport)

May 22nd, 2003, 05:29 AM	#27 (permalink)
Shep MINI2 Regular Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ, USA Local Time: 08:12 PM Posts: 209 Offline	Let's get a sense of proportion here… Gas consumption First, at least here in this land of crazy, irresponsible gas-guzzlers, the worst Mini is so far ahead that it doesn't matter. Second, ALL automatics have historically had worse mileage than manuals, and lower acceleration. The CVT in theory can change that as designs improve, but it clearly isn't there yet. Acceleration Some comparative data puts this in perspective: 0 to 60 mph: 1959 Morris Mini Minor deluxe: 26.5 seconds 1965 Austin Mini Cooper: 16.8 seconds 1963 Morris Mini Cooper S 1071cc: 13.5 seconds 1964 Morris Mini Cooper S 1275cc: 11.2 seconds (source: Autocar tests in those years) The "humble" CVT is faster than the fabled top-speed 76 hp Cooper S of the 60's. The CVT is 1.2 secs slower than the manual. I'll bet most of that is transient "hesistation" right at the start. How to get the best from CVT. Run it in SD mode. That keeps it at 3000 rpm instead of 2000 rpm. Much quicker and more fun response. Both hands on the wheel round the corners. I like my CVT ! Chili red Cooper/white roof/CVT/sunroof/DSC "Max" arrived on 19th August 2002 License plate: OURMINI

May 22nd, 2003, 05:46 AM	#28 (permalink)
Minimom MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Local Time: 07:12 PM Posts: 27 Offline	I've had the CVT since September and have to admit I never even used the steptronic mode until driving the Dragon. The caravan up to the Dragon was intimidating but I was able to keep up with all the S's and regular sticks. For the first time I also got 34mph. Being a woman driver with a CVT, I was able to take all the curves and speediness of all the guys out there and was very proud of my CVT! I've never regretted not getting a stick. I lived in Los Angeles for 11 years driving a CRX through traffic and got very tired of shifting gears. My CVT gives me the best of both worlds and it is plenty fast enough for me! I do wish I could continue getting the 34 mph though. Most of the time I only get around 27-28.

May 22nd, 2003, 07:07 AM	#29 (permalink)
Paul Trained Monkey My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Bedfordshire Local Time: 12:12 AM Posts: 40,356 Offline	One thing I'm surprised about is the highly defensive attitude coming across from the CVT owners here. I didn't want to get any backs up with the title of the thread, just attention (I guess it's half worked!). I've not really seen the CVT bashing that's being spoken about here? I know that people are saying that the 'S' should never be offered in CVT "because...", in the future variants forum, but so far as I can see in this thread, there's not really any 'bashing' of the MINI auto going on. Also, I wouldn't want to see any MINI owner holding any contempt against a CVT MINI, just because it's not a manual, that's just silly! Every different MINI serves a different set of needs perfectly. They can all be improved, and they can all be enjoyed just as they are. Our trials and tribulations living in a "bleeding edge" eco house... Oxley Woods Living

May 22nd, 2003, 07:26 AM	#30 (permalink)
dietcokeplease Official MINI2 Fluffer Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Spearmint Rhino Local Time: 12:12 AM Posts: 5,261 Offline	Quote: Originally posted by cooper4us The CVT seems to generate a lot of contempt from non-CVT owners and I still fail to see why. I think this is a cultural thing in the UK. Most people learn to drive in stick-shift and remain with stick-shift cars. Most of my friends who ocassionally drive an automatic/CVT complain of a "loss of control feeling". Quote: Let's give the CVT its rightful place. I appreciate Paul passing out these technical figures but the CVT bashing is quite frankly getting a bit old and overcooked. No-one is "bashing" CVT. I'd love a CVT Diesel MINI as my commute car. I personally think that a normal automatic would have been a better choice for the MINI. I'm now driving an automatic MPV as my everyday car. In press-on driving, I find I still instinctively feel for the clutch pedal! There is just one moon and one golden sun; And a smile mean friendship to ev'ryone; Through the mountains divide, and the oceans are wide; It's a small world after all.

Jun 5th, 2003, 10:52 AM	#31 (permalink)
nonsequitur MINI2 Master My Classifieds Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Seattle area, WA Local Time: 04:12 PM Posts: 1,471 Offline	My recent three days of driving our CVT on the track did more to expose questions than provide answers to this debate. I was not able to objectively test as intended because we couldn't stop on track to record 0-60, 1/4mile, or 60-0 data, but I was able to "run with" various auto brands, and Cooper manual, Cooper S manual, and a Cooper racecar. Direct comparison was easy. The MINI compares very favorably (It's Quick, not Fast in a straight line), and the CVT was right with the other MINIs, no lagging behind at all. There are significant and important differences in CVT performance depending on mode selection (D, SD, Steptronic) and - just as important - Throttle Pedal position. The Kickdown detent has some very important effect in software, and the CVT unit. It seems to accelerate quickest with the throttle pedal just shy of the detent (not the intuitive "to the floor" position I would expect most testers to use when comparing the cars). I was able to repeatedly pull with the Cooper manual, and the Cooper racecar, all the way to the 110mph breakpoint for Turn 2. This was a "rolling start" off Turn 8, so not a 0-60 type comparison. 0-16mph in a MINI is not fast. I would like to organize some Objective Testing with others in this area, because based on driving the car several hundred miles at speed, I don't trust the numbers being talked up now. '02 MINI Cooper CVT(6/12/02; Indi Blue/Black, R-81 7-hole 15x5.5" or NZO 16x6.5") '67 Austin Cooper S (6/26/67; Tartan Red/Black, 10x4.5")

Jun 5th, 2003, 11:39 AM	#32 (permalink)
cooper4us MINI2 Master Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Florida Local Time: 07:12 PM Posts: 1,423 Offline	Johnwald, great observations please keep 'em coming and if you have any suggestion for us CVT owners that live far away from Seattle, please let us know. Your findings are making the overall ownership of our Cooper CVT alot more interesting. Heck, the CVT is not your everyday slushbox and I am glad that MINI didn't spoil the car with some heavy and run of the mill 4-speed automatic. '02 MINI Cooper CVT On Order: 2004 MCS (Est production date: 9/5/03)

Jun 5th, 2003, 12:12 PM	#33 (permalink)
RobFriedman MINI2 Regular Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bay Shore, LI, NY Local Time: 08:12 PM Posts: 275 Offline	hey the CVT aint that slushy... doesnt even have a torque converter! <grin> but we drove it all over the White Mtns in New Hampshire AND drove it up Cathedral Ledge and DOWN... shifting to SD and Shiftronic mode.. and used it to have engine breaking coming down! Thats GREAT!! I was also looking at the Saturn ION Quad Coupe before we got the MINI.. it Also had a CVT. but no steptronic mode... thie is a GREAT CAR.. I call this a Touring Car.. since I have the CVT, Premium Package, Cold Package , Sport Seats and Chrome Trim and All Pepper White. 2003 Pepper White, CVT, Cold Package, Premium Package, Chrome Inserts, Sport Seats, Euro Shelf, AUX Adapter, Taillight Brake Mod, Hot Pocket, Glovebox Organiser, Mini-Fini Cupholder

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