MINI2

tomskilv · Dec 27th, 2003, 05:07 AM

Well, I ordered my IS 300 on Dec 1. I offered 3100 under invoice and the dealer countered with 2000 under invoice. I said, no, the 3100 under offer stands, they came back and asked 3200 under invoice, and I agreed to it. I had to special order the one I wanted. It will be bright absolute red, with tan ivory leather interior, 5 speed stick, sunroof. Currently they are only making black leather interior. So it will take about 3 months to get the car. Sadly, there was a $1000 manufacturer to dealer incentive that went into effect two weeks after I placed my order, but it was only for cars on the lot and delivery had to be made by Jan 2. Oh well. Still wish mini would have had the orange and be had for less than MSRP. Will miss getting 28 miles per gallon in the city. (Las Vegas), and 38 on the highway. My Lexus IS 300 will only get 18/24 mph, and I do 95% of my driving in the city. :-(
Maybe if they do come out with the orange in 2005, I'll breakdown and buy a mini too and have two nice cars to tool around in. Best wishes. Tom in Vegas

miniisfun · Dec 27th, 2003, 10:18 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by tomskilv

Well, I ordered my IS 300 on Dec 1. I offered 3100 under invoice and the dealer countered with 2000 under invoice. I said, no, the 3100 under offer stands, they came back and asked 3200 under invoice, and I agreed to it. I had to special order the one I wanted. It will be bright absolute red, with tan ivory leather interior, 5 speed stick, sunroof. Currently they are only making black leather interior. So it will take about 3 months to get the car. Sadly, there was a $1000 manufacturer to dealer incentive that went into effect two weeks after I placed my order, but it was only for cars on the lot and delivery had to be made by Jan 2. Oh well. Still wish mini would have had the orange and be had for less than MSRP. Will miss getting 28 miles per gallon in the city. (Las Vegas), and 38 on the highway. My Lexus IS 300 will only get 18/24 mph, and I do 95% of my driving in the city. :-(
Maybe if they do come out with the orange in 2005, I'll breakdown and buy a mini too and have two nice cars to tool around in. Best wishes. Tom in Vegas

What u on about!

Just buy the MINI!

1. U aint had that good a deal
2.U gonna be spending more money on petrol! (gas for the US!

)
3. U gonna look like an old gimp now u in a lexus when u could av looked cool in a MINI for less!
Well will all make mistakes m8! and u just made a clanger!

tomskilv · Dec 27th, 2003, 03:21 PM

oops, I meant to say I got the car for $3200 under MSRP. Big difference. sorry. I just felt it was a better deal to buy the Lexus under MSRP rather than pay MSRP for the Mini, even though the mini still cost US$10k less. But I sure would have liked to have had a mini. Maybe I will get an 05 if they make it in orange. Good luck. Tom in Vegas

[quote=tomskilv]Well, I ordered my IS 300 on Dec 1. I offered 3100 under invoice and the dealer countered with 2000 under invoice. I said, no, the 3100 under offer stands, they came back and asked 3200 under invoice, and I agreed to it.

smartbomb · Dec 27th, 2003, 03:37 PM

You pays your money and makes your choice.
At least you made your decision with a large amount of logic Tom. Enjoy your Lexus and with any luck I'll come see you when we both get our MINIs stateside.

LordWinslow · Dec 27th, 2003, 07:06 PM

[quote=tomskilv]oops, I meant to say I got the car for $3200 under MSRP. Big difference. sorry. I just felt it was a better deal to buy the Lexus under MSRP rather than pay MSRP for the Mini, even though the mini still cost US$10k less. But I sure would have liked to have had a mini. Maybe I will get an 05 if they make it in orange. Good luck. Tom in Vegas

Quote: Originally Posted by tomskilv

Well, I ordered my IS 300 on Dec 1. I offered 3100 under invoice and the dealer countered with 2000 under invoice. I said, no, the 3100 under offer stands, they came back and asked 3200 under invoice, and I agreed to it.

$3200 under, well they will make that up with the next 4 people that buy an IS300. Also with paying 3200 under how much is the dealer making on you? I am curious. I know with Mini the margens are tight, MSRP is usually $2000 to 3000 over invoice depending on options. Lexus I think are $4000-6000, again depending on options. Are you still getting a better deal?

Also the Orange color is going to be on the convertable only as far as I know. So you may have to wait longer or buy a convertable.

Anyway, Good luck with the IS300.

Winslow

(Soon

)

dav · Dec 27th, 2003, 07:25 PM

Just remember the basic rule in purchasing almost every consumer product; you get what you pay for. I agree the Toyota (lexus) IS300 is a great car, but it's not a competitor to the Mini in the American marketplace. It competes against the PT cruiser and VW New Beetle. The IS300 is a different animal than a Mini. As for problems, my 2004 MCS with 5,400 miles has been totally trouble and rattlefree since day one. I get a grin on my face every time I turn the key. I will agree that early 2002 Mini's had some teething problems, but BMW has ironed them out on the new models.

ProV1 · Dec 28th, 2003, 06:29 PM

just fyi, if big discounts are what ur after, u can buy a new porsche 911 tt w/ $15k discount...

ddp · Dec 28th, 2003, 06:38 PM

Quote:

It competes against the PT cruiser and VW New Beetle

Are you saying the IS300 competes against the PT Cruiser and the Beetle? Or the MINI? I assume you mean the MINI competes against those cars.

andyupnorth · Dec 28th, 2003, 06:44 PM

I'm amazed this thread is still going! The reason you can get big discounts off the Lexus is (1) it was always overpriced from the start - a Toyota clad in a Lexus badge, and (2) it's reaching the end of it's model life with a new one round the corner - dealers are having to take any sensible offer to shift them. The discount given is reflected in the car's value 2/3 years down the line.You might be the nicest bloke in the world with the best bargaining skills but you ain't going to get anything off if BMW can sell every MINI they can make at MRSP. Supply and demand - that's all it is.

GRSmotorsport · Dec 28th, 2003, 07:15 PM

I owned a tuned Escort Cosworth for 4 years

then I had ago in a new Mini Cooper S, and that was enough for me to sell the RS and buy the Mini

..........Great little car

very pleased with it indeed

Graham

tomskilv · Dec 29th, 2003, 08:50 PM

Yet, a new reason not to buy a mini, they just upped the price of the S mini by $US$450 starting Jan 1. Ouch!. This was just a matter of time as the US dollar has declined over 20% vs the Euro in the last 12 months.
I dont car about the resale value of a car that I buy. I care more about how well it it built and how long it will last. I plan to keep my IS 300 for at least 7 years. I might buy a base mini down the line IF it comes in Orange, and if the build quality problems can get fixed. It seems as if some of them are being taken car of, so that is a good sign. Good luck. Tom in Las Vegas

NEMINI · Dec 29th, 2003, 08:55 PM

wow a whole $450

big deal, progress isn't free. Nothing stays the same price year to year so why should MINI's?

LordWinslow · Dec 29th, 2003, 09:22 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by GMINI03

wow a whole $450

big deal, progress isn't free. Nothing stays the same price year to year so why should MINI's?

$450 didn't stop me...infact that is just a drop in the bucket for the price of the car. I am surprised it isn't a $1000 more. (I was also told the $450 was just on the S only.)

If you are basing your decision on the price now as well, you do belong in something other than a Mini. You will be misrible and unhappy, and the first time something happens you will put the car up for sale. Save yourself the trouble and go buy the Lexus. Hopefully down the road once your ready to deal with the uniqueness of a british automobile (and I mean the good with the bad), come on back.

Winslow

(Soon

)

Ian Clark · Dec 29th, 2003, 10:09 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by tomskilv

After extensive research, I was all set to buy a base Mini Cooper. I had considered Infiniti G35 Coupe, Nissan 350 Z, Nissan Sentra SER-V, MazdaSpeed Protege, Acura TSX and Lexus IS 300. I have decided to by the Lexus IS 300 because they can be had for right near invoice price.
The reason Mini lost my sale was due to dealers refusing to sell below MSRP and the failure to come through with the rumored Orange color for 2004. (it is said now to be coming out for 2005, but only for the convertible) The fact I was willing to overlook all the quality problems of the mini due its fun factor says a lot..............)
Best wishes. Tom in Las Vegas

Firstly ! TROLL.
Secondly, it's your loss not ours or Minis. I'd rather we have a majority of people state how happy they are with their Minis and people asking for advice regarding an issue as opposed to someone who says he's not going to buy a mini because he wants his cake and to eat it and also attempts to Justify his decisions with ridiculous comparisons.

$28k cars indeed compared to a base mini. DOH !!

I've not received my Mini yet - 19th January.. Yeehaw and one of the things I'm looking forward to most is meeting up with lots of the regulars here on a Mini run... Go ahead and buy your big $28k car friend...

I'm not being nasty here, I just thing you're nuts !

Oh and you say you'd buy the car simply for it's fun factor and not the quality? - I have no words for this kind of comment... just.. har har har !

Some people are simply not happy with anything. Some people will find fault with anything. I believe you are one of those.

There is something called "The Bigger Picture"

pob · Dec 29th, 2003, 10:19 PM

Seems a bit of a pointless thread to me. If you don't want to buy a MINI, then don't buy one! Hardly rocket science......

ddp · Dec 29th, 2003, 11:37 PM

I cannot for the life of me understand how a price increase of $450 would stop one from buying a car. I can understand your thoughts on quality issues and such, but the price increase?

KJ_daGreenMini · Dec 29th, 2003, 11:57 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by ddp

Are you saying the IS300 competes against the PT Cruiser and the Beetle? Or the MINI? I assume you mean the MINI competes against those cars.

the mini is a hot hatch, the two named above are not. They cant be competing in the usual sense in that cars of the same class compete for sales. not IMO anyway

stryder · Dec 30th, 2003, 04:22 AM

Random FYI:

Inflation is currently at about 2% a year. 2% of 20,000 is $400. MINI raised the price of the S (not base, read the news article, so it doesn't matter to you anyway) 1/4 of 1% above the rate of inflation.

Incidently, the inflation rate will probably increase slightly as the economy picks up steam anyway, since the federal reserve likes to keep it near 3% anyway.

Also, an IS300 gets 24 or 25 highway milage (5sp/Automatic), vs 37 for a base cooper(5 speed). I think the price difference of $450 would quickly be eaten up by extra fuel costs over the 7 year period of ownership.

Its all about what you want to pay attention to. Most people here like and want MINIs, so they're willing to justify things, if you're not willing, then clearly its not the car for you, and perhaps a forum for whatever car you do want would support your views.

obehave · Dec 30th, 2003, 05:07 AM

This thread gets my vote as the longest crap whining thread on the site

NEMINI · Dec 30th, 2003, 05:11 AM

Someone earlier in this thread alluding to a good point. If you never intended to buy a MINI, and your postings in this thread make it readily apparent that your mind was closed long before you got here, why did you come here? To cause trouble? To annoy people? To be a pot-stirrer? I fail to see how any good intention could have ever been meant when this thread was started. Please feel free to correct me, in a polite manner, if I am incorrect and have missed something.

Dec 27th, 2003, 05:07 AM	#41
tomskilv MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Apr 2003 Local Time: 12:45 AM Posts: 48 Offline	Well, I ordered my IS 300 on Dec 1. I offered 3100 under invoice and the dealer countered with 2000 under invoice. I said, no, the 3100 under offer stands, they came back and asked 3200 under invoice, and I agreed to it. I had to special order the one I wanted. It will be bright absolute red, with tan ivory leather interior, 5 speed stick, sunroof. Currently they are only making black leather interior. So it will take about 3 months to get the car. Sadly, there was a $1000 manufacturer to dealer incentive that went into effect two weeks after I placed my order, but it was only for cars on the lot and delivery had to be made by Jan 2. Oh well. Still wish mini would have had the orange and be had for less than MSRP. Will miss getting 28 miles per gallon in the city. (Las Vegas), and 38 on the highway. My Lexus IS 300 will only get 18/24 mph, and I do 95% of my driving in the city. :-( Maybe if they do come out with the orange in 2005, I'll breakdown and buy a mini too and have two nice cars to tool around in. Best wishes. Tom in Vegas Sig Too Big!

Dec 27th, 2003, 10:18 AM	#42 (permalink)
miniisfun MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: West Midlands Local Time: 12:45 AM Posts: 39 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by tomskilv Well, I ordered my IS 300 on Dec 1. I offered 3100 under invoice and the dealer countered with 2000 under invoice. I said, no, the 3100 under offer stands, they came back and asked 3200 under invoice, and I agreed to it. I had to special order the one I wanted. It will be bright absolute red, with tan ivory leather interior, 5 speed stick, sunroof. Currently they are only making black leather interior. So it will take about 3 months to get the car. Sadly, there was a $1000 manufacturer to dealer incentive that went into effect two weeks after I placed my order, but it was only for cars on the lot and delivery had to be made by Jan 2. Oh well. Still wish mini would have had the orange and be had for less than MSRP. Will miss getting 28 miles per gallon in the city. (Las Vegas), and 38 on the highway. My Lexus IS 300 will only get 18/24 mph, and I do 95% of my driving in the city. :-( Maybe if they do come out with the orange in 2005, I'll breakdown and buy a mini too and have two nice cars to tool around in. Best wishes. Tom in Vegas What u on about! Just buy the MINI! 1. U aint had that good a deal 2.U gonna be spending more money on petrol! (gas for the US! ) 3. U gonna look like an old gimp now u in a lexus when u could av looked cool in a MINI for less! Well will all make mistakes m8! and u just made a clanger! Yaaayyyyy! MINI!

Dec 27th, 2003, 03:21 PM	#43 (permalink)
tomskilv MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Apr 2003 Local Time: 12:45 AM Posts: 48 Offline	oops, I meant to say I got the car for $3200 under MSRP. Big difference. sorry. I just felt it was a better deal to buy the Lexus under MSRP rather than pay MSRP for the Mini, even though the mini still cost US$10k less. But I sure would have liked to have had a mini. Maybe I will get an 05 if they make it in orange. Good luck. Tom in Vegas [quote=tomskilv]Well, I ordered my IS 300 on Dec 1. I offered 3100 under invoice and the dealer countered with 2000 under invoice. I said, no, the 3100 under offer stands, they came back and asked 3200 under invoice, and I agreed to it. Sig Too Big!

Dec 27th, 2003, 07:06 PM	#45 (permalink)
LordWinslow Back... Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Londonderry, NH Local Time: 07:45 PM Posts: 1,414 Offline	[quote=tomskilv]oops, I meant to say I got the car for $3200 under MSRP. Big difference. sorry. I just felt it was a better deal to buy the Lexus under MSRP rather than pay MSRP for the Mini, even though the mini still cost US$10k less. But I sure would have liked to have had a mini. Maybe I will get an 05 if they make it in orange. Good luck. Tom in Vegas Quote: Originally Posted by tomskilv Well, I ordered my IS 300 on Dec 1. I offered 3100 under invoice and the dealer countered with 2000 under invoice. I said, no, the 3100 under offer stands, they came back and asked 3200 under invoice, and I agreed to it. $3200 under, well they will make that up with the next 4 people that buy an IS300. Also with paying 3200 under how much is the dealer making on you? I am curious. I know with Mini the margens are tight, MSRP is usually $2000 to 3000 over invoice depending on options. Lexus I think are $4000-6000, again depending on options. Are you still getting a better deal? Also the Orange color is going to be on the convertable only as far as I know. So you may have to wait longer or buy a convertable. Anyway, Good luck with the IS300. Winslow (Soon ) This space for Rent

Dec 27th, 2003, 07:25 PM	#46 (permalink)
dav MINI2 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA; So. CA Local Time: 04:45 PM Posts: 256 Offline	Just remember the basic rule in purchasing almost every consumer product; you get what you pay for. I agree the Toyota (lexus) IS300 is a great car, but it's not a competitor to the Mini in the American marketplace. It competes against the PT cruiser and VW New Beetle. The IS300 is a different animal than a Mini. As for problems, my 2004 MCS with 5,400 miles has been totally trouble and rattlefree since day one. I get a grin on my face every time I turn the key. I will agree that early 2002 Mini's had some teething problems, but BMW has ironed them out on the new models. 2004 MCS BORN 9-'03 http://images.snapfish.com/33%3A4%3B...C7823535wp1lsi http://images.snapfish.com/33%3A4%3B...74853%3Bwp1lsi

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Dec 27th, 2003, 03:37 PM	#44 (permalink)
smartbomb Bring the noise My Classifieds Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Trancentral Local Time: 12:45 AM Posts: 2,421 Offline	You pays your money and makes your choice. At least you made your decision with a large amount of logic Tom. Enjoy your Lexus and with any luck I'll come see you when we both get our MINIs stateside.

Dec 28th, 2003, 06:29 PM	#47 (permalink)
ProV1 MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Dec 2003 Local Time: 07:45 PM Posts: 25 Offline	just fyi, if big discounts are what ur after, u can buy a new porsche 911 tt w/ $15k discount...

Dec 28th, 2003, 06:38 PM	#48 (permalink)
ddp MINI2 Regular Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Chatham, NJ Local Time: 12:45 AM Posts: 88 Offline	Quote: It competes against the PT cruiser and VW New Beetle Are you saying the IS300 competes against the PT Cruiser and the Beetle? Or the MINI? I assume you mean the MINI competes against those cars.

Dec 28th, 2003, 06:44 PM	#49 (permalink)
andyupnorth MINI2 Master Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Newcastle Local Time: 01:45 AM Posts: 767 Offline	I'm amazed this thread is still going! The reason you can get big discounts off the Lexus is (1) it was always overpriced from the start - a Toyota clad in a Lexus badge, and (2) it's reaching the end of it's model life with a new one round the corner - dealers are having to take any sensible offer to shift them. The discount given is reflected in the car's value 2/3 years down the line.You might be the nicest bloke in the world with the best bargaining skills but you ain't going to get anything off if BMW can sell every MINI they can make at MRSP. Supply and demand - that's all it is.

Dec 28th, 2003, 07:15 PM	#50 (permalink)
GRSmotorsport MINI2 Senior My Classifieds Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Yeovil Local Time: 12:45 AM Posts: 670 Offline	I owned a tuned Escort Cosworth for 4 years then I had ago in a new Mini Cooper S, and that was enough for me to sell the RS and buy the Mini ..........Great little car very pleased with it indeed Graham

Dec 29th, 2003, 08:50 PM	#51 (permalink)
tomskilv MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Apr 2003 Local Time: 12:45 AM Posts: 48 Offline	Yet, a new reason not to buy a mini, they just upped the price of the S mini by $US$450 starting Jan 1. Ouch!. This was just a matter of time as the US dollar has declined over 20% vs the Euro in the last 12 months. I dont car about the resale value of a car that I buy. I care more about how well it it built and how long it will last. I plan to keep my IS 300 for at least 7 years. I might buy a base mini down the line IF it comes in Orange, and if the build quality problems can get fixed. It seems as if some of them are being taken car of, so that is a good sign. Good luck. Tom in Las Vegas Sig Too Big!

Dec 29th, 2003, 08:55 PM	#52 (permalink)
NEMINI NEMINI.org Join Date: Sep 2002 Local Time: 07:45 PM Posts: 7,866 Offline	wow a whole $450 big deal, progress isn't free. Nothing stays the same price year to year so why should MINI's? NEMINI.org, NEMINI.us, NEMINI.info, NYMINI.org

Dec 29th, 2003, 09:22 PM	#53 (permalink)
LordWinslow Back... Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Londonderry, NH Local Time: 07:45 PM Posts: 1,414 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by GMINI03 wow a whole $450 big deal, progress isn't free. Nothing stays the same price year to year so why should MINI's? $450 didn't stop me...infact that is just a drop in the bucket for the price of the car. I am surprised it isn't a $1000 more. (I was also told the $450 was just on the S only.) If you are basing your decision on the price now as well, you do belong in something other than a Mini. You will be misrible and unhappy, and the first time something happens you will put the car up for sale. Save yourself the trouble and go buy the Lexus. Hopefully down the road once your ready to deal with the uniqueness of a british automobile (and I mean the good with the bad), come on back. Winslow (Soon ) This space for Rent

Dec 29th, 2003, 10:09 PM	#54 (permalink)
Ian Clark MINI2 Master My Classifieds Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Liverpool, UK Local Time: 12:45 AM Posts: 1,781 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by tomskilv After extensive research, I was all set to buy a base Mini Cooper. I had considered Infiniti G35 Coupe, Nissan 350 Z, Nissan Sentra SER-V, MazdaSpeed Protege, Acura TSX and Lexus IS 300. I have decided to by the Lexus IS 300 because they can be had for right near invoice price. The reason Mini lost my sale was due to dealers refusing to sell below MSRP and the failure to come through with the rumored Orange color for 2004. (it is said now to be coming out for 2005, but only for the convertible) The fact I was willing to overlook all the quality problems of the mini due its fun factor says a lot..............) Best wishes. Tom in Las Vegas Firstly ! TROLL. Secondly, it's your loss not ours or Minis. I'd rather we have a majority of people state how happy they are with their Minis and people asking for advice regarding an issue as opposed to someone who says he's not going to buy a mini because he wants his cake and to eat it and also attempts to Justify his decisions with ridiculous comparisons. $28k cars indeed compared to a base mini. DOH !! I've not received my Mini yet - 19th January.. Yeehaw and one of the things I'm looking forward to most is meeting up with lots of the regulars here on a Mini run... Go ahead and buy your big $28k car friend... I'm not being nasty here, I just thing you're nuts ! Oh and you say you'd buy the car simply for it's fun factor and not the quality? - I have no words for this kind of comment... just.. har har har ! Some people are simply not happy with anything. Some people will find fault with anything. I believe you are one of those. There is something called "The Bigger Picture"

Dec 29th, 2003, 10:19 PM	#55 (permalink)
pob MINI2 Regular Join Date: Dec 2001 Local Time: 01:45 AM Posts: 229 Offline	Seems a bit of a pointless thread to me. If you don't want to buy a MINI, then don't buy one! Hardly rocket science......

Dec 29th, 2003, 11:37 PM	#56 (permalink)
ddp MINI2 Regular Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Chatham, NJ Local Time: 12:45 AM Posts: 88 Offline	I cannot for the life of me understand how a price increase of $450 would stop one from buying a car. I can understand your thoughts on quality issues and such, but the price increase?

Dec 29th, 2003, 11:57 PM	#57 (permalink)
KJ_daGreenMini what happened to that boy Join Date: Feb 2003 Local Time: 01:45 AM Posts: 1,625 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by ddp Are you saying the IS300 competes against the PT Cruiser and the Beetle? Or the MINI? I assume you mean the MINI competes against those cars. the mini is a hot hatch, the two named above are not. They cant be competing in the usual sense in that cars of the same class compete for sales. not IMO anyway

Dec 30th, 2003, 04:22 AM	#58 (permalink)
stryder Sponsor/Moderator/Other Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Cleveland Local Time: 07:45 PM Posts: 3,267 Offline	Random FYI: Inflation is currently at about 2% a year. 2% of 20,000 is $400. MINI raised the price of the S (not base, read the news article, so it doesn't matter to you anyway) 1/4 of 1% above the rate of inflation. Incidently, the inflation rate will probably increase slightly as the economy picks up steam anyway, since the federal reserve likes to keep it near 3% anyway. Also, an IS300 gets 24 or 25 highway milage (5sp/Automatic), vs 37 for a base cooper(5 speed). I think the price difference of $450 would quickly be eaten up by extra fuel costs over the 7 year period of ownership. Its all about what you want to pay attention to. Most people here like and want MINIs, so they're willing to justify things, if you're not willing, then clearly its not the car for you, and perhaps a forum for whatever car you do want would support your views. Magic 8-ball was correct. All be in awe of Magic 8 ball.

Dec 30th, 2003, 05:07 AM	#59 (permalink)
obehave Mini Mod Join Date: Sep 2002 Local Time: 07:45 PM Posts: 9,315 Offline	This thread gets my vote as the longest crap whining thread on the site

Dec 30th, 2003, 05:11 AM	#60 (permalink)
NEMINI NEMINI.org Join Date: Sep 2002 Local Time: 07:45 PM Posts: 7,866 Offline	Someone earlier in this thread alluding to a good point. If you never intended to buy a MINI, and your postings in this thread make it readily apparent that your mind was closed long before you got here, why did you come here? To cause trouble? To annoy people? To be a pot-stirrer? I fail to see how any good intention could have ever been meant when this thread was started. Please feel free to correct me, in a polite manner, if I am incorrect and have missed something. NEMINI.org, NEMINI.us, NEMINI.info, NYMINI.org

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