[XSmall]

My husband and I went to the dealer yesterday to drive my MINI, and a new one, and to discuss what to do after 5 times in for service and v36 didn't fix the stumble.

I went in prepared for a fight. We drove my 03, and on taking off from a standstill, with their 'best service guy' in the back, it spun tires, lurched, bogged, and resisted like crazy. I did it 3 or 4 times, the last time it almost came to a grinding halt. I know my MINI did NOT drive like that when I picked it up a year ago (Dec 13 02). The service guy just sat in the back and parotted "That's normal".

The scary thing is, we drove a new Oct build wit 14 miles off the showroom floor and it did the same thing!!!!!! Why is MINI shipping them out like that? If I had test driven a car like that, I would have never ever bought it. And it's not just me. I've driven astick for 11 years, and my husband tested it too. It's the car. (And I know it's the car because the service guy told us Friday it was Excessive Hesitation - before the Gen Mgr got ahold of himand made him change his story).
The service guy, sales manager and dealership General Mgr all stood there and insisted it was 'normal'. I told then that first of all, consistently bad does not make normal, it makes consistent failure. And second, I don't believe every MINI rolling off the assembly line is doing this. I have seen too many people on here with brand new MINIs without a problem at all. And, when my husband asked the service guy (who has driven 600-700 MINIs) , right in front of the Gen Mgr if that is really how DSC is supposed to work, he kind if looked at his shoes and mumbled No. And we know full well that's not how it's supposed to, nor how it used to, work.

So I told the Gen Mgr I was willing to provide another opportunity to MINI, because I'm loyal (and stubborn and maybe dumb) but I will take a chance, and hope that the next one runs as well as mine did the day I brought it home.

So long story short, I made absolutely sure I got it in writing, and they are ordering me an 04 identical to my 03, except I got black and anthracite interior instead of grey and alloy patina. And I got the new 3 spoke steering wheel. I'll have it in February, and he told us to choose whatever loaner we wanted for the meantime. Of course all they had to offer was an ugly grey green 3 series, but oh well. I keep making my payments, and all I do is change my VIN with the bank holding my loan, and I'll (hopefully) drive away in the new one.

[Paul]

Superb!

This is what happened with my MINI, I kept it, and swapped it for a lovely new 'S' when my replacement came. Only difference was they fixed it and I drove it in the mean time!

Well done, and well done for standing your ground.

Paul

[ontheroadagain]

Well good for you XSmall for sticking to your "guns" - so to speak. And good for that service fellow for telling the truth!

[XSmall]

Thanks guys! I really hated that it came to that, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy about getting a brand new MINI!
BTW, any new S owners, please take the poll at http://www.mini2.com/forum/mini-cooper-s/46996-brand-new-mini-cooper-s-you-problem-free.html to tell me if it's really normal. :-)

[agiduda]

Any chance you can drive an MCS from someone that claims to have no problem? After reading all the complaints I am starting to wonder how much driving style and driving style affecting "ECU learn" has to do with it. I have noticed on mine that after driving it like grandma (winter conditions and cold pavement) it is now getting a hesitation (DSC off). And this is with Conforti's latest Shark map.

[XSmall]

The only other one I've driven was highly modified (it belongs to MOTORIN http://www.mini2.com/forum/members/5953.html ) and has prob 250 horsepower. It had absolutely NO hesitation!
So is this a theory that the stumble is possibly learned?

[Rob.]

Congrats, sounds like they finally gave you a good deal

[Goonery]

This 'stumble' problem has got me thinking, (I know its dangerous and does'nt happen much ), but I've got this suspicion thats its due to the fuelling not catching up with the throttle position. You hit the gas, the car takes off, then theres a disconnect or delay somewhere, so the gas /air metering goes hunting for the right setting, and its too slow, which causes the stumble. I've not got too much time to do any research before the holiday season, but when I get an opportunity I'll get playing with settings to see if I'm right.

[agiduda]

Quote: Originally Posted by XSmall

The only other one I've driven was highly modified (it belongs to MOTORIN http://www.mini2.com/forum/members/5953.html ) and has prob 250 horsepower. It had absolutely NO hesitation!
So is this a theory that the stumble is possibly learned?

I don't know, I have some experience with programming engine management on a twin turbo rotary but have no experience with ODBII systems. It's just that after reading a lot of threads concerning the stumble I am wondering. I just put a pully and the Conforti Shark ECU remap on my MCS and have had no stumble. But, after driving like granny the past few days it was stumbling yesterday. Since yesterday I have been a bit more aggressive with the throttle and now notice the stumble is gone. Same tank of fuel, same elevation, same temperatures.

It just make me wonder, I may have to get some documents and dive into ODBII engine management. But, a tough programming problem at work will have to come first.

[gtshnzr]

I don't know. I drive hard all the time. When I first got the car, I "thought" I had a stumble, but it really was getting used to the clutch (quite different from my TR6) now that I've had it awhile. Now it seems fine after 4500 miles. Goes like HE double hockey sticks.

[Mugami]

I've been driving sticks for over 20 years now.. in many different cars/trucks you name it. in that time ive had a few that would make the yo-yo problem seem mild. The problem seems to me has to do alot with the learning of the ECU. That and the fact we all know the MCS run rich.. i mean very rich. For those who want to correct me say im wrong. Go for it. But here my two cents worth. When a car at idle is running on the ragged edge of being to rich and you take off from idle you get a stumble. the yo yo is now for when the car is leaning out to make the right power. For those who can remember a car with a manuel choke if after warming the car up if you left the choke on and you hit the gas the car would stumble or die.. leaving it partail way on even a little you can duplicat the problem were having. Stuble from idle or when the foot is all the way off the gas. and the yo yo for when its cleaning or leaning itself out for normal operations.

btw i did have a Ford ranger that was funny on how you had to launch the truck. If you started to take off and blipped the throttle to keep the revs from rocketing to much it would stall every time. Which made for great laughs and side bets everytime i took it in to get the oil changed to see how many times the person would stall it to get it into the bay. avg was 5 times. On the MCS's for me i found the pedal doesnt react as fast as i do and this could be some of it as well.

until we meet on the road
Have fun, Be safe and Keep MOTOV8N

[XSmall]

Nervously waiting for my settlement agreement to be faxed...

[XSmall]

Well, after Phil Kahler at MINI USA told me repeatedly that they were giving me ALL my money back, they faxed a "settlement agreement" that deducts almost $4000 for mileage. That's the first they ever mentioned about that.
I'm rejecting their agreement and letting the Ohio Attorney General's office handle it from here. I'm so far beyond being fed up at this point, I just don't even know what to do. I'm going back to get my MINI tomorrow though. No point in it just sitting on their lot. I"ve missed it, stumble and all.

[NEMINI]

mileage is an allowable deduction in every states lemon laws that I know of

[XSmall]

Quote: Originally Posted by GMINI03

mileage is an allowable deduction in every states lemon laws that I know of

I don't think they do ... I've read Ohio's Lemon law statutes, and I definitely not a lawyer but I don't think that they deduct.
If the manufacturer, its agent, or its authorized dealer is unable to conform the motor vehicle to any applicable express warranty by repairing or correcting any defect or condition that substantially impairs the use, safety, or value of the motor vehicle to the consumer after a reasonable number of repair attempts, the manufacturer shall, at the consumer's option, and subject to division (D) of this section replace the motor vehicle with a new motor vehicle acceptable to the consumer or accept return of the vehicle from the consumer and refund each of the following:
(1) The full purchase price including, but not limited to, charges for undercoating, transportation, and installed options;
(2) All collateral charges, including but not limited to, sales tax, license and registration fees, and similar government charges;
(3) All finance charges incurred by the consumer;
(4) All incidental damages, including any reasonable fees charged by the lender for making or canceling the loan.



My contention with them is he kept telling me all my money would be refunded, and never mentioned a deduction for mileage. He could have mentioned it on any of the occasions that I said "When you say all my money, you mean my down payment, everything I've paid, and pay off my loan, right?" I could have made a more informed decision if I had known that all along.

[NEMINI]

Quote:

... subject to division (D) of this section ...

what's division (D) say?

[XSmall]

Quote: Originally Posted by GMINI03

what's division (D) say?

I think it means this:
(D) Sections 1345.71 to 1345.77 of the Revised Code do not affect the obligation of a consumer under a loan or retail installment sales contract or the interest of any secured party, except as follows:
(1) If the consumer elects to take a refund, the manufacturer shall forward the total sum required under division (B) of this section by an instrument jointly payable to the consumer and any lienholder that appears on the face of the certificate of title. Prior to disbursing the funds to the consumer, the lienholder may deduct the balance owing to it, including any reasonable fees charged for canceling the loan and refunded pursuant to division (B) of this section, and shall immediately remit the balance if any, to the consumer and cancel the lien.
(2) If the consumer elects to take a new motor vehicle, the manufacturer shall notify any lienholder noted on the certificate of title under section 4505.13 of the Revised Code. If both the lienholder and the consumer consent to finance the new motor vehicle obtained through the exchange in division (B) of this section, the lienholder shall release the lien on the nonconforming motor vehicle after it has obtained a lien on the new motor vehicle. If the existing lienholder does not finance the new motor vehicle, it has no obligation to discharge the note or cancel the lien on the nonconforming motor vehicle until the original indebtedness is satisfied.



{love copy and paste} The whole thing is here. It's a little hard to understand, but from what I can tell, if the problem is reported within the first 18,000 miles, and they cannot fix it after 3 times, then the consumer gets their car replaced, or $$ refunded. If they would have just given me the car that they said they would to begin with, we wouldn't still be dealing with this.

[CooperS4us]

XSmall, just to clarify...I have a '04 MCS (Sept '03 build) with 2,800 miles (Even) and the car has ZERO stumble and ZERO yo-yo. My MCS was not ordered with the DSC, it only has ASC+T. My car drives absolutely smoot as silk and pulls with gusto with linear acceleration from the get-go.

Sorry to read about your ongoing saga. I think GMINI is right...the manufacturer can deduct mileage for usage under a Lemon Law or buyback agreement; however the trick here is to determine at which mileage point the bogging/stumble problem began to happen.

Good luck.

[markjenn]

If you want to continue the valiant fight, go ahead, but don't let your emotions cloud your judgement. You have an offer in front of you that could put this saga behind you. There is a lot to be said for just "moving on".

- Mark

[SilverGAGT]

Quote: Originally Posted by XSmall

I went in prepared for a fight. We drove my 03, and on taking off from a standstill, with their 'best service guy' in the back, it spun tires, lurched, bogged, and resisted like crazy.

This is interesting. I was out yesterday in the rain. I was coming off the line and spun the tires. DSC kicked in, cut all engine power, I basically came to a stop, then the car started to go again. Sounds similar to what you are describing here. I thought that was how DSC worked (cut engine power).....but I agree it is very dangerous when getting out of the way of something.

Now, with DSC off, I can spin the tires all I want.

Again, sorry to hear about all these problems you are having, and hopefully you have a MINI next summer so my wife and I can come down for a meet or two.