[GMINI]

Where are they getting their information from?

Better yet - how come the rating is above -100???

sell NOW!!!!

[Bob's MCS]

I got my CR issue a few days ago as well and I nearly flipped when I read that. That came as a complete surprise. At first I thought it was some sort of error. I mean come on... -99% ?! That seems a tad much to me. Personally I've had no issues whatsoever with my MCS other than the interior door reflectors falling off, but then again I've only had mine for about a year.

[kplo]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bob's MCS

I got my CR issue a few days ago as well and I nearly flipped when I read that. That came as a complete surprise. At first I thought it was some sort of error. I mean come on... -99% ?! That seems a tad much to me. Personally I've had no issues whatsoever with my MCS other than the interior door reflectors falling off, but then again I've only had mine for about a year.

I don't understand, from their website the MINI cooper is the most satisfying small car. see here:
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/...=1078881004720

are we talking about the same "consumer reports"?

[SFJAMES]

that bmw guy, was it Cutler? anyway, I'm sure he is right when he says mini owners are more passionate about our minis. I know I pop the bonnet everyday when I get home to let Brutus cool off. OK, I need to get another (lady) mini before I go into this one! There is a difference between people who motor and people who do not. live and let live! minis rule!

[plugot]

"But all Mercedes-Benz models were below average, as were all Audis, Jaguars, Land Rovers, and the BMW 7 Series, X5 SUV, and Mini Cooper."

This is the direct quote taken from the CR website regarding reliability. It does confirm what we know - MINI owners love their cars, but are properly aggravated by the problems that have plagued many owners. I guess in the grand old school of English motoring, the MINI has character. Of course, I have no problem loving a car that has no problems, but it just doesn't actually seem to work out that way.

[GMINI]

I just find it very perplexing. Reliability is all about gettin up and going. My car's been very good at doin that. Hmmm. It's not like I get the rag at home so it would be nice to see an explanation online .

[Sejanus]

Quote: Originally Posted by GMINI

I just find it very perplexing. Reliability is all about gettin up and going. My car's been very good at doin that. Hmmm. It's not like I get the rag at home so it would be nice to see an explanation online .

I don't know the contradiction seems to make sense to me. I love my MINI in everything from looks to handling to practicality, but truth be told for a brand new car it has had an issue or two more than I would hope or expect (and my car's problems have been much milder than those expereinced by quite a few others). So if someone doing a survey asked me if I was satisified with my car I'd say yes, but if they also asked me if I'd had any problems with it I'd also have to say yes.

[EBMCS03]

Ya i saw it in the book store today too... I was like WHAT! I know its not the best... but its not THAT bad...

[Humourl3ss]

Taken from CR's website:

Quote:

• Passion often outweighs practicality. Sports-car and sporty-car owners were most satisfied overall. Least enthused were owners of minivans, despite those vehicles’ user-friendly designs.

There you have it. Or as Angus McKenzie said in the latest issue of CAR (I'm paraphrasing here), "The purchase of a car can be rationalized, but is rarely rational".

-CW

[ABG]

Quote: Originally Posted by plugot

"But all Mercedes-Benz models were below average, as were all Audis, Jaguars, Land Rovers, and the BMW 7 Series, X5 SUV, and Mini Cooper."

I think it comes down to expectations - if you pay through the nose for a "luxury" European car when the smallest thing goes wrong seems like a huge problem. If you buy a car knowing it's cheaper and you don't expect much from it your much less likely to complain long and hard if something does fall off.

Besides the X5 is made in the US - so it can't just be a useless European workers issue

[snid]

Sounds about right to me... I've got around 45,000 miles on my MINI, and it has had far more problems than my previous car, a VW Golf, had in 125,000 miles - or my parents Ford Escort with 150,000 miles and still rolling. But, I'd much rather drive the MINI.

All my problems have been fixed under warranty so far, but when that changes, I'll have to think hard about what to do. Too bad the resale value of my MINI has undoubtedly taken a big hit due to the high mileage and an accident.

[dmholmes]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sejanus

I don't know the contradiction seems to make sense to me. I love my MINI in everything from looks to handling to practicality, but truth be told for a brand new car it has had an issue or two more than I would hope or expect (and my car's problems have been much milder than those expereinced by quite a few others). So if someone doing a survey asked me if I was satisified with my car I'd say yes, but if they also asked me if I'd had any problems with it I'd also have to say yes.

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I love the car but, truth be told, it has been more problematic than the past 5 Japanese cars I have owned combined. I did the CR survey and was completely honest with my answers. Unfortunately I have had a number of problems but also fall into the category of "would probably buy another one".

As far as owning a Mini out of warranty, that is more than a bit troubling for me. Local BMW labor rates of $90 an hour would probably make the car unaffordable for me if the current spate of problems continue past the warranty period. By then it will be time for a Mini convertible though

[uptick]

I M H O:

If I understand those who truly live by CR's recommendations and criteria, then hey, I say great! Thank you CR for giving out a negative 99% rating! That "bottom-line" figure will certainly keep the 'soccer moms,' 'girlscout dads' and 'pizza delivery guys' from buying a MINI for mainstream utilitarian uses .

These 'surveys' or 'reports' remind me of the specious aspects inherent in things like the US News Report's college rankings, or the former stock analyst who recommended buying an internet retailer stock because it was going to the moon! One can't believe everything out there at face value and assume everything can be manipulated, processed, and extracted down to one bottom-line figure .

True, the MINI is not 100% trouble-free; perhaps it may even be "99%" troublesome. But I have to think that many of us who bought the MINI so early on in its reincarnation had a compelling reason to buy it and to subject ourselves to the whole process of acquiring it. The reason may not even be quantifiable as a number or rank.

However if independent survey says reliability is poor, then let that speak for what it is and hope that that would spur positive change. On the otherhand, is the MINI a "bad," "good," "boring" or "fun" car because reliability is rated "poor"? Only you the motorist can answer that for yourself, and the fact that you still drive or don't drive the MINI says a lot.

[markjenn]

A couple of points about CR's ratings:

1. Minus 99% simply means that Mini's experienced about 99% more problems than the average car. So if the average car experienced three problems per year, then the Mini experienced about six. If you look at the rankings you'll see a couple cars that did worse: for example, the BMW 7-series was minus 175%.

2. Owner satisfaction and reliability are completely independent items in CR's survey. Satisfaction is measured by how people respond when asked how satisfied they are with their cars overall. Reliability is measured by people reporting how many problems they have had with their car. The first is completely subjective, the 2nd is designed to be objective, although owners probably inject some subjectivity when they tally how many problems their cars have.

3. The poor reliability showing of the Mini is not surprising in the slightest. For one, BMW has a terrible track record in introducing reliable new models. The X5 had major issues, the new 7-series has lots of problems, etc. I can't think of any new or heavily-revised BMW model which hasn't had major problems out of the box. (The same can be said of most German cars - they simply do not sweat the details and do the level of testing that the Japanese do.) Second, we have enough anecdotal data from forums like this to see a lot of early problems with the 2002s and 2003s. They've abated, but haven't subsided completely. I think the 2004s are doing better, but if you think a Mini can match the reliability record of a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord, I want some of what you're smoking. Minis will slowly improve, but I expect they'll remain average to below average, like most BMWs.

3. I'd take BMW's excuses about Mini owners being "super critical" with a huge grain of salt. Every time a car has a poor reliability record, the mfg of that car comes back with some explanation that the people who drive the car are someone different than everybody else. Well, people who drive Lexus cars are VERY critical of their cars and expect absolute perfection, yet Lexus cars are absolutely and consistently high in reliability rankings.

Don't take it personally. All cars are pretty reliable these days so 99% below average may be good enough for you (it is for me if the cars redeem themselves in other ways). And I expect that the 2004s are improved enough that the -99% figure probably isn't representative of the current new cars.

But don't delude yourself - Minis don't drive like Accords and they don't stay out of the repair shop like Accords either.

- Mark

[NEMINI]

The main issue IMO is ones definition of 'reliability'

There was a time when reliability is a car meant its ability to get you from point A to point B consistantly. It had nothing to do with squeaks rattles or other minor irritations that do not prevent the primary function of an auto of getting from point A to point B. Some people still see this as reliability

Today others thinks a reliable car is a perfect car and anything that isn't absolutely perfect makes a car unreliable or at least less reliable.

We've got one rating for two different definitions of the same term. This makes any study that does not define this term useless and flawed.

--------------------------

Is my MINI reliable? 100% of the time yes, it has never failed to get me where I wanted to go

Has it had faults? yes, two of them a rattling sunroof when open (fixed myself) and a torn handbrake boot (replaced under warranty)

So how would you rate my MINI? Me I'd say 100% reliable. if your answer differs it just shows how much this study of 'reliablity' is infact very subjective.

[dmholmes]

Quote: Originally Posted by GMINI03

Is my MINI reliable? 100% of the time yes, it has never failed to get me where I wanted to go

Has it had faults? yes, two of them a rattling sunroof when open (fixed myself) and a torn handbrake boot (replaced under warranty)

So how would you rate my MINI? Me I'd say 100% reliable. if your answer differs it just shows how much this study of 'reliablity' is infact very subjective.

I would agree with your assertion. Other than a transmission failure, mine has been reliable. Reliability and quality control/build quality are not the same thing, at least IMO. QC/build quality has been a little dodgy in most of the Minis I have driven. However I too have been seeing less issues with people with newer (i.e. 2004) cars, so hopefully they are starting to get some of the QC issues under control.

[markjenn]

CR never asks people whether their cars are reliable. They ask people about how many times they've had their car repaired. They use the term "reliability" to refer to the relative ranking of how many times people have had to have their cars repaired. So this hair-splittting on the terms doesn't invalidate their data one iota.

CR doesn't separate minor issue from major issues. Most cars these days get you from Pt. A to Pt. B without breaking down, so the bar is not set there - it is set by how many times a person has to take time out of their schedule and/or pay to have somebody fix something. While you can split hairs and say that the Mini's problems are relatively minor, everybody gets graded on the same scale and there is nothing to indicate that the Mini's problems are more or less severe.

And the people who have replaced three windshields, had the dash pulled a couple times for rattles, and have battled the stumble problem through several software fixes are generally not going to think their cars are "reliable" just because they didn't leave them broken down on the side of the road.

- Mark

[CooperS4us]

Yeah but if you read the CR questionnaire, a broken ash tray counts the same as a broken transmission and so on. So yes, there is a problem in the way the data is collected, not the data itself. It is unfair to classify a loose dash plastic part as a failed suspension part. Yes, both do require a dealer visit to get them taken care of but a plastic dash part does not compromise the safety and reliability of the car in the same way a broken suspension would do.

The CR stats are interesting but I personally take them with a big grain of salt. My '04 MCS with 5,300 miles has not seen the dealer in over 5 months of ownership.

Also I suspect most of these stats reflect the common issues found on first year 2002-03 production MINIs.

[Paul]

Quote: Originally Posted by CooperS4us

Yeah but if you read the CR questionnaire, a broken ash tray counts the same as a broken transmission and so on. So yes, there is a problem in the way the data is collected, not the data itself. It is unfair to classify a loose dash plastic part as a failed suspension part. Yes, both do require a dealer visit to get them taken care of but a plastic dash part does not compromise the safety and reliability of the car in the same way a broken suspension would do.

The CR stats are interesting but I personally take them with a big grain of salt. My '04 MCS with 5,300 miles has not seen the dealer in over 5 months of ownership.

Also I suspect most of these stats reflect the common issues found on first year 2002-03 production MINIs.

Production started around April 2001 for the first Coopers, so although it took a long while to ramp up globally, they've been making them for nearly three years now (longer in fact, but that's counted as pre-production).

[CooperS4us]

Paul, the published CR stats, I believe, pertain to models sold primarily in the US market. I believe the earliest Coopers offered here are Feb '02 builds and oldest MCS are April-May of that same year (Which may concide with the global launch date of the MCS).

I have read about the horror stories on the 2001 model year MINIs sold in the UK and the rest of Europe. Apial and his original MINI ONE comes to mind.

Who gauges quality and reliability stats in the UK?