[RedWithWhiteStripes]

I got pulled over for speeding this evening, and issued with a Fixed Penalty of £60 and 3 points.
I was informed i was travelling at 60mph in a 40 zone.
Now the problem is, i am not convinced i was travelling quite so fast, and am wondering what to do.
I was pulled over by an unmarked car, driven by one uniformed officer.
There was no obvious recording equipment, and i got the impression that i was being charged based solely on the officer matching my speed over a distance (he didn't explain too well, and at the time i didn't think to ask).
Now i have since phoned the station (cheshire constabulary) to request some kind of evidence as to the alleged offence, and was told that they would not show me any, and my only options are to go to court or pay the fine.
I do not want to go to court, but neither do i want to pay the fine and accept the points purely on the basis of their intimidation, and on the officers word.
Does anyone know what my rights are in this instance, with regard to requesting evidence without going to court, and also the presence of just one officer and possibly no recording equipment?
Any information, or direction (i am sure i saw a site linked to a while back that dealt with this kind of thing, but cannot find it) would be most appreciated.

[dietcokeplease]

Normally I get quite worked up about people who whinge about being caught speeding and try to squirm out of it. If you can't do the time don't then don't do the crime no matter how ridiculous our speeding laws are. But it seems you do seem to have real doubts. To be caught at 60mph your speedo reading must have indicated about 65mph. If there was only one copper then I think certain procedures must be followed. If you tell the Police that you wish to elect to go to court then they must provide any evidence for your defence.

But these sites might help you:

http://www.pepipoo.com/
http://www.speed-trap.co.uk/Accused_...cused_Home.htm

As you don't live a million miles from Manchester, and you intend to contest it, you could employ the services of that lawyer that defends all the MUFC lot.

[Harpo]

...but remember, you become liable at 41mph.

[scooperman_uk]

good point Mr H.

[paa100]

£60 and 3 points for 20mph over the limit seems preety good to me. I always thought it was an automatic ban if you were 20mph over the limit.....

On that basis I would pay the ticket and keep quiet.........

[andyupnorth]

You are onto a hiding to nothing with this one. Even if you were not quite doing 60mph you were well over the limit. The police car probably used VASCAR, a simple time and distance computer to get your speed - basically they follow you and time you over a fixed distance which they also travel over to measure it. Once they have your time and the distance the computer gives a speed read out. It's a small box in their dash with two switches. My advice would be to pay up and not waste your time trying to fight it.

[Lucebel]

A friend of mine had to go into court after being pulled over by a cop also, there was no substantial evidence and in the end it came down to her word against the cop and who do you think they'll give the benefit of the doubt to? Yep.. the cop...
It sucks but I'm afraid that, unless you gather any evidence of not speeding, you'll get some sort of a fine no matter what.

[HObzy]

I think your on a hiding to nothing mate. Anyone speeding in those types of limits is asking for trouble and quite rightly. Did you know the limit at that point? You dont say how fast you think you were going. As paa100 says, its sounds as if you were lucky to get away with what you got.

[marrsbar]

It's not about how much he was or was not speeding, its about the law.

They cannot prosecute you if they have no evidence. They are hoping that you will just sign the form and send off the money.

My bf and I have a lot of dealings in courts and with law. I say you should elect to go to court and also demand to see their evidence. I'm quite confident that their attempt to make you pay will be fruitless.

The problem with our police law is they seem to think they are above the law. There are ways and means of carrying out our law and they seem to abide by those ways and means when they see fit. Any court - especially a judge, is very much educated on the exactness of our laws.
For example a famous Irish smuggler built his house on the Ireland/Northern Ireland border. When the British police came to arrest him he would move to the kitchen which was in Ireland. He would be taken away but the case would be dropped as the arrest was illegal. If the Irish police came to arrest him he would move to his living room which was in the UK - again the case would be dropped as the arrest was illegal. The court knew that he was a smuggler - he smuggled oil mostly, between UK and Ireland. But, becasue of a basic rule - Irish police have no juristiction in UK and vice versa, the man has YET to be caught.
Even the most rediculous laws like that are held up by our courts - so I'm confident that you would win your case - I doubt very much that the policeman that stopped you has any hard evidence.

[Rich'sFroggy]

I recently got nicked for speeding here in the States. A New York State trooper nabbed me for 77mph in a 55 zone. It was frustrating as it was only my second ticket in over 13yrs. Also there were 2 other vehicals in close proximity, BETWEEN me and the officer's radar, doing roughly the same speed. He singled out me over the housewife in the minivan, of course.

From the looks of this thread, it seems things work pretty much the same over there in the UK. I went to court. The lady who tells you what line to stand in, and the clerk at the registry desk were telling me and everyone else to plead NOT guilty, so we could walk away with reduced fines and points.

That's exactly what happened......You first meet with an officer of the court who already knows your plea. He/She offers reduced points & fine to which you could agree or disagree. It seems 99% of people agree to the reduced penalties as I did, 6 points reduced to 3 and $270. reduced to $150.
After standing in line in a dank, institutional building for 3 1/2 hours with all the other poor saps and screaming babies, your ready to agree to anything just to get the hell out of there.

They just want the $$$.

[andyupnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by marrsbar

It's not about how much he was or was not speeding, its about the law.

They cannot prosecute you if they have no evidence. They are hoping that you will just sign the form and send off the money.

My bf and I have a lot of dealings in courts and with law. I say you should elect to go to court and also demand to see their evidence. I'm quite confident that their attempt to make you pay will be fruitless.

The problem with our police law is they seem to think they are above the law. There are ways and means of carrying out our law and they seem to abide by those ways and means when they see fit. Any court - especially a judge, is very much educated on the exactness of our laws.
For example a famous Irish smuggler built his house on the Ireland/Northern Ireland border. When the British police came to arrest him he would move to the kitchen which was in Ireland. He would be taken away but the case would be dropped as the arrest was illegal. If the Irish police came to arrest him he would move to his living room which was in the UK - again the case would be dropped as the arrest was illegal. The court knew that he was a smuggler - he smuggled oil mostly, between UK and Ireland. But, becasue of a basic rule - Irish police have no juristiction in UK and vice versa, the man has YET to be caught.
Even the most rediculous laws like that are held up by our courts - so I'm confident that you would win your case - I doubt very much that the policeman that stopped you has any hard evidence.

Are you confident enough to take the extra 1-2 points and pay the extra £60 or so fine plus court costs when he loses though?

[minEman]

If i were you i would accept the fine. If you pay early doesnt it go down to £30? The reason i would pay would be it was an unmarked car that caught you. These cars are put on the road to catch speeders. thats why they are unmarked and as such are more than likely going to have vascar as 'andyupnorth' stated and/or video cameras recording every person they pull over.

If it was a panda car with just 1 officer then i would definately argue but with an unmarked car you could be worse off going to court.

[Billy Smart]

It seems like you have had lots of advice to either pay this or take it to court, i would personally pay the fine and take it as a lesson.

What you have to remember is that they are all on one side......and that is not yours

if it goes to court they might, just might pull some evidence, then you don't have a leg to stand on.

Looks like you are going to have to swallow this one!

All the best for whatever you decide..

Billy

[R1]

All I can say is, welcome to the club!

Don't forget, as a motorised vehicle user in the UK, you are lower on the scale of criminals than muggers and rapists!

[minEman]

Quote: Originally Posted by R1

All I can say is, welcome to the club!

Don't forget, as a motorised vehicle user in the UK, you are lower on the scale of criminals than muggers and rapists!

....but they invest most in catching speeders. hummmmm something not quite right there

[Doctor Wha?]

This is probably less directly useful to you in the UK than it is here in the States, but it can probably help a little bit just for some perspective.

It's interesting to read about the VASCAR (?) computer that seems to be in use over there. Here, the police don't even have to use that. They can just "pace" you, as they call it, which consists of getting behind you, maintaining a reasonably consistent distance, and matching your speed for (I think) 3/10 of a mile. Whatever the cop's speedometer reads, that's assumed to be your speed, and that's what goes on the ticket. And even with a family full of lawyers (UK=barristers), I don't know anyone who has ever successfully argued that the cop's speedometer wasn't properly calibrated. So there's that.

Secondly (and here is where the perspective comes in), remember this: The cop works for the jurisdiction. So does the judge. You don't.

I vivdly recall learning this on an occsion when I was in high school. I was pulled over in a little do-nothing backwater where I was working a summer job. It was sloppy as hell. The cop wrote the ticket out imporperly, had the wrong speed limit entered for where I was "caught," and I had photos of the bloody speed limit sign to prove this to the judge. As if that wasn't enough, the cop admitted he was wrong in open Court! But then the cop pulled this little gem out of his hat:

"Well, Your Honor (the Judge), I actually clocked him going much faster than that, but worte down a lower speed on the ticket, just to give him a break."

This, of course, was an utter load of *****. But now the cop was painting himself as a sympathetic figure. So guess what the verdict was...

Yep. "Guilty" anyway.

And that's when my A#1 Legal Advisor (also known as Dad) pointed out why he had gone along with the idea of me even bothering to go to Court in the first place: To learn firsthand that the Judge works for the exact same people the cops do. And facts or not, they aren't about to come down on the side of a kid who thinks he has their gonads to the wall.

So, after spending the evening in court with a bunch of people I wouldn't have hung out with anyway, I wound up not only paying the same amount of money and taking the same amount of points, but I wasted several hours of my life as well.

Point well made, it was the last speeding ticket I ever got.

Of course, this doesn't mean I stick to the letter (or in this case, the digit) of the law. I just became lot more careful about not getting caught.

In the end, my .02... Pay it, drop it, and be a bit more careful in the future. If it helps, just consider the fine your "admission fee" into a bit more insight on How Things Work In The Real World.

Good luck,
DW

[DEVO]

Is the penalty the same whether you were going 60mph vs 45mph? Where I live, each mph over the limit after the first 5mph increases the penalty pay. I would take it to court. If it is his word over yours then it should get thrown out. He has to have proof (recording) if he wasn't using radar. His car's spedometer has to be calibrated within a certain period of time (at least that is true here). If he used radar or laser, those too have to be calibrated periodically. Get a hold of these records, if they are out of date, then you gain here.

Anyway worst case you could argue a lesser speed a pay for that, I don't know if your points will drop accordingly. Which sucks because that will affect your insurance rate. So you will end up paying much more then just the penalty.

[keith1609]

iam not sure where i read this, or got told, but when their issue the ticket iam sure u can ask for evidence and they should provide it for u. but as u already have done this i dont know how much truth is in it

[geist]

You should have asked to see the evidence when he pulled you. He should have shown it to you. That way you would know whether or not he has evidence against you.
A lot of the time they just pull you and give a ticket and 99% of people will not contest it and pay up. With no evidence, that said a Police Officers word may be all te evidence they need. Chances are they will have video evidence.

If you believe you were not going that fast and the Police Officer is pulling a fast one, probably to fill his "quota". I would seek advice from a solicitor. However i'm afraid if you were over the limit, even by 1 Mph you broke the law and were caught

[RedWithWhiteStripes]

I suspect he may not have had a video, as he told me he was not a traffic cop, but on the lookout for stolen vehicles. Also when i asked to see the video (having phoned the station), the woman said there may not be a video.
If the officer was using his speedometer, or a device which accurately records his speed, then surely that can only serve to prove that he was travelling at 60mph, not me (surely they need to prove that he was following me at the same speed, something which can only be achieved usind a video camera).
I am really curious to know what rights i have as to access any evidence they may have against me, because if i was speeding, and they have proof, i am more than willing to pay the fine. What i am not willing to do is pay a fine i didn't deserve, based solely on their say so, in order that they can fill whatever quota has been set that month.
Also, having phoned the citizens advice bureau, i have been informed that going to court may not mean having to pay court costs (upon losing the case), as it is rare to be issued costs unless you really upset the magistrates.
If all it costs me is a few hours, and no more money or points, it may be worth the risk.