[robbo mcs]

Hi,

Just a few friendly points of advice,

Replacing the front pads is a good value performance upgrade.

There is no need to do anything to the rear brakes | have been running extremely hard with my mini on the track. The rear brakes do virtually nothing. The front pads / rotors wear at around 4-5x the rate of the rear. I would stick with the stock rear pads, once they wear out (which will be a long time), then maybe replace them with an aftermarket product.

Why does everyone want to replace the discs? There is no problem with the performance of the stock discs. I am running a true carbon metallic racing pad (Galfer). I am using standard front rotors. I have done temperature measurement etc, and the pads and discs work well together. The standard discs wear well, even with abrasive track pads. I went through 4 pairs of front pads from memory (maybe 3) before having to replace the discs.

Maybe people want to replace them because they believe the myth that you can't change a brake pad compound and keep the same disc. As long as you follow proper bedding in procedure, to adequately coat the surface of the disc with new pad material, there is no problem replacing stock pads with performance ones whilst using the same disc.

Once the front rotors eventually need replacing, then consider an aftermarket product, but don't throw out a perfectely good disc just for the sake of replacing them

There are some nice cryo treated slotted front discs now available in Oz (ring Greg Moon at Race Brakes if you are interested). When my current front discs wear out I was thinking of trying these. However, I now have a better idea!

Can all the people throwing out completely good front discs send them to me? I'll give you postage money That will keep me in discs for years

Cheers

Robbo

[FLiPSiDE]

to be honest robbo.. i just wanted slotted rotors cause they looked cool

race brakes is within meters of where i work.. they charge the same to fit pads and rotors at the same time so meh.. why not .. i meant to get it done on friday but work saw me in woop woop from 5am and all day so im gonna arange to go back next week... I can tell them to keep the stock rotors there for u if you want, i dont mind them going to a good home hehe

[robbo mcs]

Quote: Originally Posted by FLiPSiDE

to be honest robbo.. i just wanted slotted rotors cause they looked cool

race brakes is within meters of where i work.. they charge the same to fit pads and rotors at the same time so meh.. why not .. i meant to get it done on friday but work saw me in woop woop from 5am and all day so im gonna arange to go back next week... I can tell them to keep the stock rotors there for u if you want, i dont mind them going to a good home hehe

Hi,

It's nice to see some honesty, and have you admit that you prefer the slotted rotors because they look cool I agree, they do look very cool Because I track my car I am obsessed with performance, and I tend to forget that other people mod their cars for both performance and looks From the visual aspect I personally prefer slotted discs to cross-drilled. Painted calipers can also look good on certain cars, but I'm not sure on the mini

By the way, before I had a mini I saw your car parked at your work when I dropped my other car off at race brakes

Say hello to Greg for me.

Don't worry about keeping the discs for me. I was allready planning next time they needed replacing to try the slotted discs

Cheers

Robbo

[cityclinic]

Agree with you Robbo . . . . my brakes are really overkill. Some simple inexpensive changes would have been enough for what we do with the MINI (Occasional Tracking, Driver Training and MINI Runs) however in our case we have kept the original set and will change the big brake kit to the next MINI in 05. Love the look of the slotted rotors . . . ours are cross drilled however if I had a choice they would be slotted.

[swamos]

Can I put myself on the unwanted rotor list too I'll pay for postage as well, and might slip a lotto ticket in for people

I put EBC greenstuff on a long time ago. (I think the car had 5k on it). It didn't say so in the instructions, but the discs need a light machine to clean them for the new pads. This was what caused my problems with them I believe. I got the discs skimmed, and all has been well since That allows you to run them in properly.

Don't worry about BMW saying no to machining. If the disc has plently of meat left, a very light machining would leave you well above the minimum and prepare the discs for the new pads.

I still think those that only want to change for lower dust are going to be dissapointed though ...

As to the rears, I've owned a number of new cars, some of them up to 100k, and I have never had one that has worn the rear pads, let alone the discs to the stage of needing replacement. Imagine my horror when I hear that they replaced Jasemini's front and rear discs at less than 50k at massive cost Let's just say that I think these items are high margin for MINI

[new skool]

Im keen on the front pads for sure, Mite just wait on the rotors as i ran green stuff pads with standard rotors on my gti-r and the rotors were fine..So pad me up and let me know when you need the cash!!

[snoopy]

Quote: Originally Posted by swamos

As to the rears, I've owned a number of new cars, some of them up to 100k, and I have never had one that has worn the rear pads, let alone the discs to the stage of needing replacement. Imagine my horror when I hear that they replaced Jasemini's front and rear discs at less than 50k at massive cost Let's just say that I think these items are high margin for MINI

I think that was the price for only front brakes I know my pads are stuffed (45k of MINI KM = hard driving) will have to go around to the swamos garage to see what meat I have left on the front rotors.

True about changing things just for the look or the braging rights, but I think money spent in keeping the braking part of any car tip top is money well spent for me as the driver and the other road users.

[gazah]

i'll have to do a bit of a google on this one, but does a better braking system [changing one or more of pads / rotors / calipers] reduce the incidence of the ABS kicking in?

i'm gonna need to go back to basics on what triggers ABS, but am just wondering whether it's simply related to driving style / conditions, or whether the characteristics of the braking system itself have an influence also?

with fear of going toooo far off-topic, i get a tapping through the brake pedal when approaching corners i wasn't really prepared for & have been told by the dealer it's the ABS! [nothing helpful on MINI2 either ] braking power is reasonable / adequate, but must be compromised if the ABS is active!

[MiniG]

I don't know where this group buy is, sounds like Australia, perhaps? I am interested in the front pads, but have had enough cars (especially front wheel drive) to know not to bother woith the rears. Unless you want them for looks (they look cool) the rears wear so little they may never need replacing. If you are doing e-brake slides or something, you might beg to differ...
I would like a pad with less dust and better performance for the front.
Cheers,
Guy

[swamos]

Quote: Originally Posted by gazah

i'll have to do a bit of a google on this one, but does a better braking system [changing one or more of pads / rotors / calipers] reduce the incidence of the ABS kicking in?

i'm gonna need to go back to basics on what triggers ABS, but am just wondering whether it's simply related to driving style / conditions, or whether the characteristics of the braking system itself have an influence also?

with fear of going toooo far off-topic, i get a tapping through the brake pedal when approaching corners i wasn't really prepared for & have been told by the dealer it's the ABS! [nothing helpful on MINI2 either ] braking power is reasonable / adequate, but must be compromised if the ABS is active!

Whooo, what a question. ABS stands for Anti-lock Braking System. What this means it that when you brake hard enough that the wheel is starting to lock, the motion sensors on the wheels pick this up, and cut the hydraulic pressure to the caliper which stops the wheel from locking. This enables the wheel to be on the optimum slip rate, and the driver to still steer the car.

In idea conditions a non-abs equiped car can stop just a quickly as a abs equiped car. However, in the real world things are far from perfect and ABS usually results in shorter stopping distances as it works better for panicked drivers on uneven/wet road surfaces.

The MINI also has another feature called EBD or electronic brake force distribution. Long story, but this means that if the car senses you really want to brake (application over 70% typically), it will appy the other 30% for you. This was invented for the US market where they found people were lifting off the brake pedal when they noticed the pulsating uder foot and running into whatever it was that was in front of them

Anyway, what this means is that in theory is that for the one quick panic stop, race pads may not infact help, but may actually result in less efficient braking as they take time to warm up. The factory pads are set up to work well from cold for this reason. Ultimately, your tyres' grip will determine how quickly you can stop.

However, the special pads come into their own when you are doing a lot of heavy braking, like enthusiastically pushing down a mountain, or on the track as they maintain their efficiency for much longer, and don't crack or degrade when they get hot.

IMHO (I'm sure I'll get slammed for this as per usual), the MINI has quite good brakes from standard. Unless you really push your car on the road, or do track days, I just can't see any point in doing massive brake upgrades. Even then, when you fell the pedal starting to get a little soft, you can allways slow down a little.

But, if you want to burn some money, put EBC greenstuff pads on. As far as I'm aware, I was one of the first people on MINI2 to fit them (go do the search). I fitted them mainly for the promise of lower dust. I had **HEAPS** of problems with them too. I ran them in as per the instructions, but they didn't really work. Certainly not as well as the MINI pads.

Even after running in, I was going down the mountain with other MINI's, and they faded to the point when I could hardly stop, and heated the rotors so much they warped them I am normally easier on brakes than most of the other MINI pilots up here too This was very dissapointing. The term "green fade" entered my vocabulary. Apparently this is not uncommon for the first time they are used in anger, but then I did run them in as per instructions.

Eventualy I tried machining the rotor, as whenever they worked hard they faded badly, and the pedal pulsated due to the warping from heat. Since then, I would say they have been as good or maybe slightly better than the factory pads.

For someone changing for the low dust angle, you will be dissapointed. They are lower dust, but not low dust. Have a look at how dusty your back wheels get now, and the fronts will still be dirtier even with EBC. If you think that is enough to warrant the change, then go with it.

When these pads wear out, I'm going to put the factory ones back on to use them up I just think back to my first car, a Sigma One hard stop from 80k and the brakes were history for 5 minutes

[gazah]

thanks for the input steve!

spent an hour or so reading up on things today & it certainly would seem that ABS is completely distinct from your brake setup, but obviously inherently related to your tyres / road conditions etc!

[eltel]

Quote: Originally Posted by swamos

... Imagine my horror when I hear that they replaced Jasemini's front and rear discs at less than 50k at massive cost Let's just say that I think these items are high margin for MINI

I had to replace my front and rear pads and rotors at 40,000ks. Not happy about that at all.

[swamos]

Quote: Originally Posted by eltel

I had to replace my front and rear pads and rotors at 40,000ks. Not happy about that at all.

I think because it is such a long service car, they look at them and say is it possible that these will wear out in the next 25/30k? If the answer is at all yes, then they insist on doing this. If they ask me, I'll be saying "no thanks I'll monitor them myself and have the repairs performed when the components are on the limit of specification".

How much was it if you don't mind me asking??

[snoopy]

Quote: Originally Posted by swamos

I think because it is such a long service car, they look at them and say is it possible that these will wear out in the next 25/30k? If the answer is at all yes, then they insist on doing this. If they ask me, I'll be saying "no thanks I'll monitor them myself and have the repairs performed when the components are on the limit of specification".

How much was it if you don't mind me asking??

Yep you are right if they won't last till the next service, off they come. Also they will not machine the rotors for a simlar reason: the rotor might be under the min thinkness before the next service.

The reason I am looking to swap is only the fact that for the same money as MINI brakes I might be able to get a better brakes for the same price. I know that how better the brakes may be will be a talking point, but I will give them ago.

[robbo mcs]

Hi,

I thought I would add my 2cents worth regarding ABS.

ABS is the best thing since sliced bread Under almost all circumstances it helps you stop quicker than you could otherwise, you can steer while braking, and as a bonus it stops you flat spotting the tyres The only circumstances where it may be detrimental are on really loose or slipperly surfaces eg gravel, ice etc

Recently I had an experience that changed my perception of ABS. I have done skid pans, wet braking tests etc. I have allways associated ABS with that judder feeling beneath the brake pedal, usually when braking hard and coming to an near stop.

I was on the track when my ABS warning light repeatedly kept coming on. I rang BMW, who told me how to reset it, but it kept activating. I thought to myself "oh well, it doesn't matter, I'm not using the ABS on the track" so I kept going. The next corner (turn 2 at Eastern Creek) which is a 160 down to 80 km corner was an experience. Normally I brake very hard and late into this corner. I tried my usual braking approach, and suddenly without ABS the car was locking up, sliding 30 degress one way, then other, and I ran off the track at the end of the straight. I had NO IDEA that I was routinely using ABS in this corner. With ABS disabled my braking distance was increased by around 30%, in addition to the car being extremely unstable With ABS operational you can trail brake into corners. When it is inactive, braking is only possible in a straight line, otherwise you are at risk of spinning around

So Gazah, ABS activating is a good thing

Cheers

Robbo

[swamos]

Quote: Originally Posted by robbo mcs

Hi,

I thought I would add my 2cents worth regarding ABS.

ABS is the best thing since sliced bread Under almost all circumstances it helps you stop quicker than you could otherwise, you can steer while braking, and as a bonus it stops you flat spotting the tyres The only circumstances where it may be detrimental are on really loose or slipperly surfaces eg gravel, ice etc

Recently I had an experience that changed my perception of ABS. I have done skid pans, wet braking tests etc. I have allways associated ABS with that judder feeling beneath the brake pedal, usually when braking hard and coming to an near stop.

I was on the track when my ABS warning light repeatedly kept coming on. I rang BMW, who told me how to reset it, but it kept activating. I thought to myself "oh well, it doesn't matter, I'm not using the ABS on the track" so I kept going. The next corner (turn 2 at Eastern Creek) which is a 160 down to 80 km corner was an experience. Normally I brake very hard and late into this corner. I tried my usual braking approach, and suddenly without ABS the car was locking up, sliding 30 degress one way, then other, and I ran off the track at the end of the straight. I had NO IDEA that I was routinely using ABS in this corner. With ABS disabled my braking distance was increased by around 30%, in addition to the car being extremely unstable With ABS operational you can trail brake into corners. When it is inactive, braking is only possible in a straight line, otherwise you are at risk of spinning around

So Gazah, ABS activating is a good thing

Cheers

Robbo

Abs is brilliant. I've had abs cars since 94, and ABS has only really saved me once, but when it did it really saved my a***

Robbo, that wild behaviour under breaking is also where the Automatic Stability Control (ASC) on the MINI works. The one unit on the MINI does the ABS, ASC+T, and DSC if you have it. I presume that if it's off, you are on your own

[Smurfn]

I think ABS is fantastic.

I read at one stage that cars with and without ABS have the same number of accidents. This was a few years ago, before ABS became standard on most cars. It was thought that people who drove the ABS fitted cars were overconfident in the ability of the brakes to stop accidents, eg they tailgated more etc. I presume this has changed, but it might not have.

[Todd!]

I saw in Go MIni green stuff pads for £45 from one of the advertisers.

Any word what are we looking like in $$$?

Todd

[swamos]

Quote: Originally Posted by Red&blackS

I saw in Go MIni green stuff pads for £45 from one of the advertisers.

Any word what are we looking like in $$$?

Todd

I think I paid about $140 for the front pads for mine...

[robbo mcs]

Quote: Originally Posted by swamos

Abs is brilliant. I've had abs cars since 94, and ABS has only really saved me once, but when it did it really saved my a***

Robbo, that wild behaviour under breaking is also where the Automatic Stability Control (ASC) on the MINI works. The one unit on the MINI does the ABS, ASC+T, and DSC if you have it. I presume that if it's off, you are on your own

Hi Swamos,

I notice on the latest lotus elises they have ABS Some people call it sacrilege I call it common sense

However, I believe they also have a stereo, airconditioning and electric windows That is a betrayal of the concept

Robbo