273bhp & 233lbft torque =Im a happy bunny ........... Now with graphs!

[HObzy]

This sounds superb, keep up the good work roland

[supercoopers]

Quote: Originally Posted by HObzy

This sounds superb, keep up the good work roland

Roland,

I've just read this and only have one word to say...AWESOME!!

Keep up the good work Roland and I look forward to seeing your car soon

Cheers,

Henry

[spillers]

Hi Roland,
If your car is running on the standard ecu settings, and I can vouch its running very well. Then at what point is not benifical to get the ecu re-mapped?

[minimc]

Roland,

Are you using OE fuel injectors? If not which & how many cc? ...And if you are using OE have they been modified?

The reason I ask is that numerous other tuners have reached the limits of the OE injectors at significantly lower bhp than what you've dyno'd. For example:

FWIW I haven't seen torque or HP nearing your figures without nitrous, or a twin screw s/c, twincharging system or straight out bigg@ss turbo, like the one BMP runs in Silver Sonic.

How are you attaining so much hp/tq.?

[Andy@Ross-Tech.com]

Looking forward to seeing the dynos, including the baseline of the same car on the same dyno,

[roland2003]

Hu Guys, we use stock injectors, at 6-7k using wide band on board AF meter with it positioned before cat under full load in 4th gear achieves between 12 & 12.5 Ratio
(.8-.85 Lambda) which we find to be about perfect. I will put up graphs in the next few days.
This car has never been rolling roaded when standard ,it got taken apart when it was 3 days old as was too slow.! The rolling road we use is owned by a Honda specialist especilly Civic type Rs . He was amazed at the power,I believe the printouts have their phone number on .You can alwaysgive thema ring if you have question about the power.
Best regards Roland GT Tuning

[Msfitoy]

Quote: Originally Posted by minimc

Roland,

Are you using OE fuel injectors? If not which & how many cc? ...And if you are using OE have they been modified?

The reason I ask is that numerous other tuners have reached the limits of the OE injectors at significantly lower bhp than what you've dyno'd. For example:

FWIW I haven't seen torque or HP nearing your figures without nitrous, or a twin screw s/c, twincharging system or straight out bigg@ss turbo, like the one BMP runs in Silver Sonic.

How are you attaining so much hp/tq.?

Yes, please do list your modifications... Thanks

[Bilbo Baggins]

Quote: Originally Posted by Andy@Ross-Tech.com

Looking forward to seeing the dynos, including the baseline of the same car on the same dyno,

Me to. Otherwise the numbers are almost meaningless.

[GRSmotorsport]

If you look on the first page of this thread Roland gives you the spec

[minimc]

Quote: Originally Posted by roland2003

Hu Guys, we use stock injectors, at 6-7k using wide band on board AF meter with it positioned before cat under full load in 4th gear achieves between 12 & 12.5 Ratio
(.8-.85 Lambda) which we find to be about perfect. I will put up graphs in the next few days.
This car has never been rolling roaded when standard ,it got taken apart when it was 3 days old as was too slow.! The rolling road we use is owned by a Honda specialist especilly Civic type Rs . He was amazed at the power,I believe the printouts have their phone number on .You can alwaysgive thema ring if you have question about the power.
Best regards Roland GT Tuning

Your A/F is close to ideal, how are you acheiving this? The others I mentioned above are using wide band AF meter's too (positioned before cat) and aftermarket fuel managment.

You posted the HP numbers & you didn't provide a pre modified baseline for comparison. This would have been useful information & would have gone a long way to backing your numbers. What everyone here would really like to know is the delta... i.e. How much faster will your modifications make anyone else’s car?

I guess its OK for you to say call the Honda specialist guy "if you have a question about the power". …But you are the tuner/vendor; you are the one who used his dyno. You are the one who posted the numbers, not him. Shouldn’t you be the one to ask the questions? Presumption being that accuracy is more important to you than big numbers.

Lots of people claim high horsepower, but precious few demonstrate said power or can repeat it (with consistency) under real world conditions. At this point I am left to think the dyno was more than a little generous and that your stock MCS would have 'lit it up' too.

[roland2003]

Hi Mimic,
I think what im hinting at is that the garage used takes great pride in the accuracy and
'no cheating policy' of his rollers. I know they are regularly calibrated and Im told are always near as damn it spot on . Regarding the tuning Im happy to answer questions
and offer help but cannot give everything away as I have spent alot of time (and money)
designing,developing and testing the products. and conversions. Regarding the rolling road
figures, they were tested &proven by an independant garage by their technicians on their rollers (I just watched) therefore questions on that could be asked directly to them.
At some point in the future Im sure a std mcs will get on their rollers and Ill let you know the output. If you decide in your mind that the power is 'more than a little generous' thats ok with me. There are many mini products out there that IMO from a power perspective can be improved on immensly ,that is what weve tried to do and the power figures certainly go some way to backing this up. As regards consistency
and repeatability, we will continue to develop to increase power further and will back it up with rolling road runs . The last time we went on those rollers it made 234bhp (FW) and 207 bhp (wheels) this time we added the 16 tube intercooler + water spray and a gasflowed head manifolds &snoots etc gaining 33 bhp (wheels).We want to be sure to only sell what the customer' needs' for power & reliability . There are more new products going on for 'soak test' as we speak! Incidently the spec will be dubbed GTT 260
(not GTT 273) and may? get even better,we will certainly try!

Best Regards Roland GT Tuning Ltd

[roland2003]

Hi Guys,
trying to put up graphs as promised but having a little technical difficulty(never
posted a picky before) .The attachment goes in OK ( tried jpeg,zipped& pdf ) but wont
open when accessed from the site. I know its me being a complete baffoon,therefore any
help (PM Telephone etc) much appreciated ! Many thanks Roland GT Tuning

[notts04chillimini]

the car sounds awesome roland but can we have some pics of it

i believe the mods you have done but it seems some people dont! a few graphs and engine bay pics should do the trick mate!!

[minimc]

Quote: Originally Posted by notts04chillimini

the car sounds awesome roland but can we have some pics of it

i believe the mods you have done but it seems some people dont! a few graphs and engine bay pics should do the trick mate!!

I believe you’re mistaken.

I don’t see anyone questioning whether or not GTT’s modded the car as stated. …It’s the output figures that are in question.

GTT’s posting the reputation of the Honda tuner’s dyno accuracy is nothing more than a fallacious appeal to authority. There’s no documentation of accuracy, nothing to compare to, and no baseline dyno for the car in question.

Furthermore, to be useful the dyno runs (baseline and modified) would need to have been performed under VERY similar testing conditions: e.g. relative humidity, temps - ambient air, coolant temps, etc. and any fans or other cooling measures & bonnet open or closed.

I asked GTT if they were using OE fuel injectors. The answer was yes. However the response did not say they (or any other part of the fuel delivery system) had not been modified. ...Meanwhile most every other MCS tuner has reached the maximum duty for the OE injector at lower hp figures. JCW even increases the injector size on its new 210hp Works kit.

Injector duty/size is directly proportionate to the amount of air you are flowing. And as you increase HP you ARE flowing more air. How could it be that everyone else needs to flow more fuel than GTT?

Without any documentation I'm left with only a few conclusions:

a) In addition to other mods GTT has modified the fueling system (injector & or pump...possibly added an additional injector or similar) and is being 'cute' about it.
b) ) GTT is using alcohol/water injection or similar to modify burn
c) GTT’s component designs are far superior to everyone else including, but not limited to JCW
d) GTT’'s numbers are bloated and incorrect.

Something or someone isn't correct or isn’t telling the whole story. …And I’m not talking port designs or any other top-secret proprietary inner engine mod.

I've seen too many dyno plots (some better than others) to believe that one tuner with similar mods is producing that much more hp with the same parts & OE injectors.

I never said anyone was wrong. I am saying: When you bring the numbers you also better bring the evidence.

[roland2003]

Minimc You seem very untrusting. As we will be marketing these conversions we are hardly likely to add water&alchohol injection (for example) and then not tell anyone . Regarding the fuelling
if it needed big injectors we'd add them and make money selling these to people.
Superchargers is another example; JCW change it IMO to give justification of the high price and we ALL know only the pulley is needed.I cant get round this obsession with base
line figures. If we had done one when std,there would be a gap of 6months between runs anyway . The car could be a good one or a bad one or it could be iffy rollers reading high or reading low?. There are far more accurate ways of calibrating the rollers than that! Most std cars that go on their rollers are pretty close to
manufacturers figures .
About 10 years ago we built a R5 turbo with about 230 bhp,another respected source said ' tis not possible' We then went on to build
a 300bhp example (FWD,1,4 litre single carb no injectors)completing a 12.642secs @112.96mph quarter mile at santa pod.
Fully road legal(including tyres) driven to and from Santa Pod. No Nitrous,no lsd, and almost stock weight.I have video and timing slips .
Tuning cars we can do ,posting pics on forums I cant do so so well so if anyone can help it would be much appreciated and I'll put the graphs up..

Best Regards Roland GT Tuning