273bhp & 233lbft torque =Im a happy bunny ........... Now with graphs!

[spillers]

minimc, you do know the 273hp figures are not at the wheels don't you??

From reading this thread you appear to be very negative towards Roland, have you spoke to him in person?? been to his workshop?? driven the demo car?? I'd hazard a guess as you live in Canada the answer is no.

Its fine to have debate and be constructive but by inferring someone is not telling the truth that can be very destructive.

Roland, might be worth your time to PM Paul Mullet and see if he can get your graphs on here. I'm looking forward to seeing them.

[roland2003]

Yes the 273bhp is at the flywheel,the 240bhp is at the wheels we have graphs of both.
PS the mth software is now in again and feels a bit quicker at the top end. we're getting
.88 Lambda (12.9:1 A/F ratio) at 7000 rpm. It was around .85 before)
Good idea Simon,Best regards Roland GT Tuning Ltd.

[supercoopers]

Roland,

Hang in there bud if you can and I'll help load the dyno plot for you when I pop down tomorrow. I am quite adept with computing, so a little jpeg posting shouldn't be a problem

To all the naysayers (no names mentioned...cough) GTT has a tremendously successful background in tuning cars; just look at their past Renault 5GT work. I have seen their MCS graphs as well and they are as legitimate as you are gonna get.

I think Minimic answered his own question in his last post. For those that weren't paying attention, the answer is 'C' . The quality of Roland's work is the best I have seen thus far (JCW included, out of 12+ tuners I have visited) and he is very meticulous about drawing out engineering diagrams and pragmatically planning his tuning efforts. It is true engineers like Roland that we should be encouraging, not bashing. He is making an honest effort to offer genuinely powerful conversions at realistic prices. Give him some space to breathe please

Henry

[minimc]

Quote: Originally Posted by roland2003

Minimc You seem very untrusting. As we will be marketing these conversions we are hardly likely to add water&alchohol injection (for example) and then not tell anyone . Regarding the fuelling
if it needed big injectors we'd add them and make money selling these to people.
Superchargers is another example; JCW change it IMO to give justification of the high price and we ALL know only the pulley is needed.I cant get round this obsession with base
line figures. If we had done one when std,there would be a gap of 6months between runs anyway . The car could be a good one or a bad one or it could be iffy rollers reading high or reading low?. There are far more accurate ways of calibrating the rollers than that! Most std cars that go on their rollers are pretty close to
manufacturers figures .
About 10 years ago we built a R5 turbo with about 230 bhp,another respected source said ' tis not possible' We then went on to build
a 300bhp example (FWD,1,4 litre single carb no injectors)completing a 12.642secs @112.96mph quarter mile at santa pod.
Fully road legal(including tyres) driven to and from Santa Pod. No Nitrous,no lsd, and almost stock weight.I have video and timing slips .
Tuning cars we can do ,posting pics on forums I cant do so so well so if anyone can help it would be much appreciated and I'll put the graphs up..

Best Regards Roland GT Tuning

Firstly, Roland you seem like an enthusiastic & nice guy. So don't think I have an issue with you or GTT personally. ...Not at all. I like that you're out there tuning MINI's.

Am I "untrusting"? ...Not of you personally or GTT, I don’t even know you. But of your posted numbers… definitely!

FWIW I didn't claim you would sell anyone a kit without telling them what it consisted of - i.e. if it included water injection. My remark relates to your comment about not telling "everything" due to your time & $ investment. While you might be on the up and up there are tuners/mnfrs. who sell products with untruthful dyno #'s - not naming names though

As for JCW and the Eaton/pulley - yes, agreed. I'm not waving the JCW flag here.

I can’t get round this obsession with base line figures either. It’s one of the few methods available to tell if you're really making power. In most cases it’s the only method available. And certainly it does have its limitations.

As for time involved & conditions (6 months going by) this is what makes tuning and accurate measurement so difficult. There are a few tuners out there who've taken a very scientific approach. They attempt to limit as many variables as possible, and document everything including variables they have no control over. They qualify their results with any documented change(s).

I don't doubt that one might get near OE claimed bhp. There are even those who've dyno'd OE cars and come up with 171 bhp. Are they wrong? ...I really can't say. It's only + 5% above manufacturer claimed output.

Now… for a moment lets say the above 171 is really only 163 bhp, and the dyno is +5% in error. If we applied this to your 273 bhp it would turn into 259.35 bhp - a difference of 110bhp vs 88.2bhp. This would still be a respectable increase, but were I a tuner I'd much rather talk about my kit that produces 110 hp over stock than one that produces 88.2 over stock - even though its only some 12bhp.

This is not to say you're off, or off by this much, but it makes my point. It also makes a great argument as to why you've not found it necessary to replace the OE injectors as of yet.

The reason higher rated injectors are being used by JCW & others is several fold - not the least of which is a safety aspect... to protect the engine when the ECU is running open loop & A/F begins to lean out (due to injector duty). This would seem additionally prudent considering that injector performance degrades over time.

Best regards
mc

[minimc]

Quote: Originally Posted by spillers

minimc, you do know the 273hp figures are not at the wheels don't you??

From reading this thread you appear to be very negative towards Roland, have you spoke to him in person?? been to his workshop?? driven the demo car?? I'd hazard a guess as you live in Canada the answer is no.

Its fine to have debate and be constructive but by inferring someone is not telling the truth that can be very destructive.

Roland, might be worth your time to PM Paul Mullet and see if he can get your graphs on here. I'm looking forward to seeing them.

Wow, you certainly are leaping to numerous conclusions here aren't you.

Don't conclude skepticism is akin to calling someone a liar. I suggest you take a more positive outlook yourself.

[minimc]

Quote: Originally Posted by supercoopers

Roland,

Hang in there bud if you can and I'll help load the dyno plot for you when I pop down tomorrow. I am quite adept with computing, so a little jpeg posting shouldn't be a problem

To all the naysayers (no names mentioned...cough) GTT has a tremendously successful background in tuning cars; just look at their past Renault 5GT work. I have seen their MCS graphs as well and they are as legitimate as you are gonna get.

I think Minimic answered his own question in his last post. For those that weren't paying attention, the answer is 'C' . The quality of Roland's work is the best I have seen thus far (JCW included, out of 12+ tuners I have visited) and he is very meticulous about drawing out engineering diagrams and pragmatically planning his tuning efforts. It is true engineers like Roland that we should be encouraging, not bashing. He is making an honest effort to offer genuinely powerful conversions at realistic prices. Give him some space to breathe please

Henry

I don't doubt GTT's previous successes. My points are quite clear, and the 300 bhp Renault 5GT doesn't change the issue, though its a fine accomplishment.

Everyone should be aware that there have been MINI's which have produced in excess of 400 bhp (didn't last long though) so its not that I doubt the power claims. Its the circumstances.

[notts04chillimini]

there are quite a few people that dont seem to believe you roland!! if you email me your graphs roland i will post them up for you mate! and send me some pics of the engine bay which i could post up aswell!!

car does sound awesome tho mate, 260 bhp from an s is very respectable but 273 is just damn good going!!

chriswatson808@hotmail.com

[spillers]

Quote: Originally Posted by minimc

Wow, you certainly are leaping to numerous conclusions here aren't you.

Don't conclude skepticism is akin to calling someone a liar. I suggest you take a more positive outlook yourself.

Hi minimc,

[minimc]

Quote: Originally Posted by spillers

Hi minimc,

Now thats way more positive!

[obehave]

Quote: Originally Posted by minimc

Now thats way more positive!

Canadian troublemaker

All kidding aside, I know where you're coming from. Some of the newer members might not know you as well.
You're a "just the facts" person like myself.

Gettin' cold there yet?

[minimc]

Quote: Originally Posted by obehave

Canadian troublemaker

All kidding aside, I know where you're coming from. Some of the newer members might not know you as well.
You're a "just the facts" person like myself.

Gettin' cold there yet?

Everyone thinking they know me

Joe Friday's the name...

[GRSmotorsport]

I've seen some of Roland's work - a friend of mine has a well tuned Renault 5GT turbo by GT Tuning, and the work carried out was superb.

Roland, see you next Saturday for my pulley and idler pulley , keep up the good work

[roland2003]

Thanks for the offers guys.
Mimmc No problem , What weve tried to do is give as accurate plot as possible and give as much info as possible. eg we've quoted the ambient pressure and air temp,
also the roller speed to engine rpm (which checks out),also weve quoted BHP @wheels &
measured the loses at 12%( which also checks out with other peoples testing).
We did a few runs and that was the highest, all the others were within 8 bhp of this.
TBH I cant do any more short of you being their to watch and the rollers being calibrated in front of you. This power increase v actual power output thingy is a strange one. Let me give you an example : the Rica chip& the mth chip claim 190-195 bhp on mcs without using a pulley Another tuner in the uk I spoke to a few months back told me '...... cooper S never gives 163 bhp standard.... its more like 180-190 on our rollers' So does this chip give an extra 30bhp or just 7bhp over standard? Who knows. To be fair IMO its probably somewhere in the middle,personally I prefer to see published the actual power output as it removes the argument as to what the car was to start with .Incidently a chip designed for a non pullied mcs will give more bhp increase over stock than a chip added to a pullied car
as theres more headroom to advance ignition on the former. I think Adam at C/T was trying to say that just prior to being burnt at the stake a few months back. Of course pully plus chip gives better power again Regards Roland Gt Tuning

[supercoopers]

Quote: Originally Posted by minimc

I don't doubt GTT's previous successes. My points are quite clear, and the 300 bhp Renault 5GT doesn't change the issue, though its a fine accomplishment.

Everyone should be aware that there have been MINI's which have produced in excess of 400 bhp (didn't last long though) so its not that I doubt the power claims. Its the circumstances.

Sorry, but your argument is completely oxymoronic. What points of yours are clear? What exactly are 'the circumstances' you allude to? Your post makes no sense in context no matter how many times it is read. Sorry

The 400bhp MINI you refer to was AMD UK's car with rotrex, headwork, nitrous etc. This figure was measured on their in-house rolling road so not independent by any intergalactic stretch of the imagination. The engine threw a piston on it's final run, causing 7Ks worth of damage.

Be thankful that Roland has had his car tested by an independent party; this result is as objective as you are going to get from a tuner. Besides, Roland has already stated that his top of the range kit will be marketed as a 260bhp+ kit meaning that the customer is not shortchanged in any way, even IF the figures were found to be slightly optimistic.

Henry

[notts04chillimini]

most stock s's normally put out alot healthier bhp figure than bmw say it is anyway! there have been many a cooper s that are stock and putting out 175 with just an induction kit! i think roland will be doing well by marketing the kit as a 260 plus! as said before he is not going to be short changing anyone that way! lets face it, 260bhp in a mini is pretty impressive by any standards, so trying to push 300bhp out of the 1.6 engine is sort of tipping it over the edge! could easily be done but as for reliability, not going to be very good hey!!

i am sure rolands kit will be very reliable because of the extensive testing! i have tested a few standard s's and they have pretty good linear power anyway, so as for 260 brake, congrats to roland is due!!

and heres me talking, i drive a 135bhp cooper