273bhp & 233lbft torque =Im a happy bunny ........... Now with graphs!

[minimc]

Quote: Originally Posted by supercoopers

Sorry, but your argument is completely oxymoronic.

Really…? Oxymoronic, as in contradictory? Hmmmm.

So you are saying that I can't take Roland's word for it (that he's produced at 300 hp 5GT). Because I have issues with his MINI results? You’ve got to be kidding! Obviously you're entitled to your opinion, as am I. But this’ hardly an oxymoron.

Since this thread began numerous posters have come on in support of Roland/GTT. I too am supportive, but want answers. Unfortunately the answers don’t really explain the results. And without a baseline reference point…

Quote: Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins

…numbers are almost meaningless.

Roland seems like a good guy & he is tuning MINI’s… right!? Many of you appear impressed with his ability, that’s good too. But you can’t discount the fact that I don’t know Roland, GTT, or his/their work. Roland is human and therefore fallible. GTT is a company & therefore not without interests. While I am not inclined to doubt Roland’s previous projects/results I do have issues with what’s been purported re: the MINI project results. Only because I am familiar with numerous ongoing MINI projects. If I were privy to numerous Renault 5GT-tuning projects I might chose to share an opinion on it. But I am not, and so I will not, other than to say that it sounds good. In the end I am not the vendor who decided to purport X horsepower gains, and therefore I am not the one to back any claims.

Quote: Originally Posted by supercoopers

What points of yours are clear? What exactly are 'the circumstances' you allude to? Your post makes no sense in context no matter how many times it is read. Sorry

Answers:
Roland seems to understand my line of questioning, as do others. You might not agree with or like my style, but that's another issue entirely.

Quote: Originally Posted by minimc

…It’s the output figures that are in question.

… There’s no documentation of accuracy, nothing to compare to, and no baseline dyno for the car in question.

… to be useful the dyno runs (baseline and modified) would need to have been performed under VERY similar testing conditions: e.g. relative humidity, temps - ambient air, coolant temps, etc. and any fans or other cooling measures & bonnet open or closed.

…Injector duty/size is directly proportionate to the amount of air you are flowing. And as you increase HP you ARE flowing more air. How could it be that everyone else needs to flow more fuel than GTT?

PM me if you need, I can provide further clarification

Quote: Originally Posted by supercoopers

The 400bhp MINI you refer to was AMD UK's car …was measured on their in-house rolling road so not independent by any intergalactic stretch of the imagination.

Point taken

Quote: Originally Posted by supercoopers

Be thankful that Roland has had his car tested by an independent party; this result is as objective as you are going to get from a tuner. Besides, Roland has already stated that his top of the range kit will be marketed as a 260bhp+ kit meaning that the customer is not shortchanged in any way, even IF the figures were found to be slightly optimistic.Henry

The independence of this other party and accuracy of their dyno is anything but clear.
Also… I’ll be thankful for that which I see fit and you sir may do as you please.

In no way did I imply that one of GTT’s customers would get “shortchanged”… that’s you reading into my words. Please feel free to be creative with your own, but as for me I’ll say mine if and when I mean them.

Roland posted his information of his own volition. His information suggests a unique experience. This line of questioning was merely an attempt to find out why Roland’s experience was so different compared to others. Unfortunately we’re unable to know, because data was not recorded. End of story.

Hopefully I’m clear enough this time

[supercoopers]

That is a more constructive reply MINIMC, which goes some way to explaining your scepticism. Some but not all of the points you share have been taken on board. I think that we can now agree to disagree in peace. Either way, I just feel incredibly lucky to have a MINI tuner like Roland this side of the 'Pond'

Regards,

Henry

[notts04chillimini]

Quote: Originally Posted by minimc

Really…? Oxymoronic, as in contradictory? Hmmmm. While I am not inclined to doubt Roland’s previous projects/results I do have issues with what’s been purported re: the MINI project results. Only because I am familiar with numerous ongoing MINI projects. If I were privy to numerous This line of questioning was merely an attempt to find out why Roland’s experience was so different compared to others. Unfortunately we’re unable to know, because data was not recorded. End of story.

rolands data was recorded and hes sending me the data so i can post it up for him!!

what ongoing projects are they then, that u have had experience with then minimc??

even tho rolands results are exellent, it is by far easily achiveable to make 290, or even 300bhp with the mini! but its just the question of reliability! thats why roland will probably be testing his kit vigerously until he is satisfied that it is ready to market!!! and 260bhp is very sufficient for a mini anyway!!! if its extreme power you want from a road car, buy an evo 8 or skyline and tune to 800bhp or more!!

[spillers]

Quote: Originally Posted by minimc

Roland seems like a good guy & he is tuning MINI’s… right!? Many of you appear impressed with his ability, that’s good too. But you can’t discount the fact that I don’t know Roland, GTT, or his/their work. Roland is human and therefore fallible. GTT is a company & therefore not without interests. While I am not inclined to doubt Roland’s previous projects/results I do have issues with what’s been purported re: the MINI project results. Only because I am familiar with numerous ongoing MINI projects. If I were privy to numerous Renault 5GT-tuning projects I might chose to share an opinion on it. But I am not, and so I will not, other than to say that it sounds good. In the end I am not the vendor who decided to purport X horsepower gains, and therefore I am not the one to back any claims

Morning minimc, how are you today?? Me I'm feeling very positive today thank you!

I can see why your being sceptical, I must admit I was when I first heard about Roland at GTT. I suppose the advantage I have is that I'm actually able to go and visit GTT where as you are over in Canada. So this is exactly what I did, in fact I visited two other of the more well know tuners in the UK in the same week.

GTT are a company "not without interests" I'll agree with that, but out of the three tuners that I visited, Roland was the only one that took the time and effort to explain every last detail of the conversion. It was my decision to drive all round the UK to the different tuners and the point I'm trying to make is that GTT (Roland) didn't make me feel like he was trying to do a "hard sell", he was totally genuine and more interested in the engineering side of his work.

Thats the reason why I am supportive towards Roland and GTT, I'm sure in due course he will produce dyno graphs but what will they actually prove. Thats the problem when you are thousands of miles away, it would be much better if you was actually there and could see it for yourself. Sometimes in life you just have to trust someoneI (Amen!)

Is there no way you fancy a quick trip to the UK??

I do have one question, you said in your earlier quote " Only because I am familiar with numerous ongoing MINI projects" what is your involvment?? It just struck me that you wouldn't expect a company to give away all the information on there product in an open forum would you?

Speak to you later

[notts04chillimini]

yeh what is your involvement in these ongoing projects u are on about minimc??

[minimc]

Quote: Originally Posted by notts04chillimini

rolands data was recorded and hes sending me the data so i can post it up for him!!

what ongoing projects are they then, that u have had experience with then minimc??

even tho rolands results are exellent, it is by far easily achiveable to make 290, or even 300bhp with the mini! but its just the question of reliability! thats why roland will probably be testing his kit vigerously until he is satisfied that it is ready to market!!! and 260bhp is very sufficient for a mini anyway!!! if its extreme power you want from a road car, buy an evo 8 or skyline and tune to 800bhp or more!!

Some ppl just want to believe that my skepticism is based on a disbelief of power production or some upper limit to power. Re read my posts. You are barking up the wrong tree.

[minimc]

Quote: Originally Posted by spillers

Morning minimc, how are you today?? Me I'm feeling very positive today

MOrning! spillers Me too!

Quote: Originally Posted by spillers

I can see why your being sceptical, I must admit I was when I first heard about Roland at GTT. I suppose the advantage I have is that I'm actually able to go and visit GTT where as you are over in Canada. So this is exactly what I did, in fact I visited two other of the more well know tuners in the UK in the same week.

GTT are a company "not without interests" I'll agree with that, but out of the three tuners that I visited, Roland was the only one that took the time and effort to explain every last detail of the conversion. It was my decision to drive all round the UK to the different tuners and the point I'm trying to make is that GTT (Roland) didn't make me feel like he was trying to do a "hard sell", he was totally genuine and more interested in the engineering side of his work.

Thats the reason why I am supportive towards Roland and GTT, I'm sure in due course he will produce dyno graphs but what will they actually prove. Thats the problem when you are thousands of miles away, it would be much better if you was actually there and could see it for yourself. Sometimes in life you just have to trust someoneI (Amen!)

...And all this is somehow relevant or proves anything? ...Sorry but a few of you seem to want to go in circles. Not biting.

Quote: Originally Posted by spillers

Is there no way you fancy a quick trip to the UK??

Oh, you have no idea how much I wish I could! Truth be told I would like to visit a few MINI tuners on that side of the pond including the anointed JCW. Stuck in Chicago (today) but won't be traveling for the holidays. ...Though if I had the time I’d probably go to Northern Spain.

Quote: Originally Posted by spillers

I do have one question, you said in your earlier quote " Only because I am familiar with numerous ongoing MINI projects" what is your involvment?? It just struck me that you wouldn't expect a company to give away all the information on there product in an open forum would you?

Quote: Originally Posted by notts04chillimini

yeh what is your involvement in these ongoing projects u are on about minimc??

My own, and others which I’m not at liberty to discuss, as they are others businesses.

All you two need to know is that I’m not a vendor, and don’t make any money from tuning anything MINI.

When and if I choose to post dyno results or if I choose to become a vendor I’ll share. But I have no such plans. …So unless that fact changes I am a non-commercial MINI2er.

Good day & good weekend all!

[spillers]

Quote: Originally Posted by minimc

MOrning! spillers Me too!



...And all this is somehow relevant or proves anything? ...Sorry but a few of you seem to want to go in circles. Not biting.



Oh, you have no idea how much I wish I could! Truth be told I would like to visit a few MINI tuners on that side of the pond including the anointed JCW. Stuck in Chicago (today) but won't be traveling for the holidays. ...Though if I had the time I’d probably go to Northern Spain.





My own, and others which I’m not at liberty to discuss, as they are others businesses.

All you two need to know is that I’m not a vendor, and don’t make any money from tuning anything MINI.

When and if I choose to post dyno results or if I choose to become a vendor I’ll share. But I have no such plans. …So unless that fact changes I am a non-commercial MINI2er.

Good day & good weekend all!

Sounds like your biting to me!! and a little bit secrective

"Good day & good weekend", well to be honest not really optimistic about that one. I've got a terrible cold and the trots! Plus I have the prospect of a 250 mile drive tonight to Wales to see her parents!!

I'm off to go round in circles!!!

[notts04chillimini]

why so secretive! i think you have bitten back on more than 1 occasion is this discussion, if you are producing some tuning products for the mini, even if just for yourself, it is courtesy to tell people about them if you are going to say that you are "involved" in projects,


you cant say you know alot about the tuning of mini's if you cant post the proof of the products you are testing!!

roland these graphs look a bit faded, did you photocopy them? i will post them in a min!!!

roland has no trouble in posting his theories and product outcomes!! if you know so much, what have you got to hide???

im off to go round in circles too!!!

[notts04chillimini]

roland the graphes are a bit fuzzy, could you scan them again and send some more detailed ones! i have tried to post the file up that i have got but it wont let me upload that particular file!! hmmmm

[chiptuning]

Quote: Originally Posted by minimc

Injector duty/size is directly proportionate to the amount of air you are flowing. And as you increase HP you ARE flowing more air. How could it be that everyone else needs to flow more fuel than GTT?

Not strictly true. 3 (simplistic) ways to increase bhp at same rpm -

1. Optimise AFR for given amount of air by remapping fueling.
2. Optimise AFR for given fueling by increasing the amount of air, assuming ECU won't compensate for this.
3. Optimise ignition timing for given octane rating.

Combinations of all 3 are normally used, but the point is that increasing bhp does not necessarily mean increasing air flow. That's how you tune a normally aspirated engine with just an ECU remap - adjust the fueling and ignition - since air flow stays the same.

Adam.

[Andy@Ross-Tech.com]

Quote: Originally Posted by chiptuning

That's how you tune a normally aspirated engine with just an ECU remap - adjust the fueling and ignition - since air flow stays the same.

Or with a supercharged engine if you choose not to change the pulley. That delivers 32 hp, right?

[cooper7]

Just wanted to add a 'good luck' message to Roland with all the work he's doing at GTT! Not met you myself but you seem like a top bloke who is genuinely trying to improve what is on offer to the Mini-modding loving public. It's been interesting to read the, shall we say, 'highly charged' level of debate it was refreshing to see that it was based upon an intellectual standpoint and although opinions differed it didn't slip into a simplistic slagging match. I guess it's just everyones passion for the little car that leads them to be so forthright when arguing about it. A top thread people by ALL who contributed on it.

[ZAMIRZ]

4 pages and still no dyno charts

Roland, if you need a host, please email the graphs to me (ZAMIRZ@sbcglobal.net) and I will be happy to put them up and post them. If you can get them in my mailbox within the next half hour, I'll throw them up immediately. If not, then by tomorrow morning latest.

[notts04chillimini]

roland has emailed me his graphs and here they are as promised!!