[Thuma]

I was told by a previous post by BruceK that the toggle switch panels are one piece jobs and are either 3,4,5 or 6 toggles across. I'd like to get all toggle switches possible to be as James Bondlike as possible, but Bruce says the US and Cananda cannot get the 6th toggle switch panel. What is the mysterious 6th toggle switch do that we here in the States can't get ahold of?
Thanks for any input!

[Sejanus]

Rear fog light. Legal in some states but not all apparently.

[Thuma]

Well, that would be interesting because I read on another thread that rear fog lights were mandatory in EU, but not the front ones. Here in the States, as far as I know neither are mandatory in any state, and if you ever do see them they certainly would only be on the front. I lived in Germany for 6 years and certainly experienced some insane fog there that would make fog lights near to mandatory in my book as well. Interestingly, it's rained so hard here in Florida this summer that fog lights would have been a great benefit as well, including of course the rear ones. Anyone know if a stateside MCS is easily fitted with rear fog lights? Can it be done by the dealer? Do you then order a different toggle panel?
ahh..questions questions..LOL

[erazo]

Do a search on "rear fog" and you will find lengthy discussions on this issue.

Rear fogs are required in the EU and are standard on EU MINIs (and other EU cars). But in the U.S., they are not required, and while some states permit them, others do not. So for uniformity in the U.S.-spec cars, BMW does not make them available, even as an option.

[Thuma]

Thanks Rick! I'll search as you suggested, but that sounds like the real deal holyfield to me. Appreciate the feedback. I guess the garage door opener is going to be the route for the empty toggle slot! LOL :-)

[BruceK]

This thread is the first in which I have heard that some US states do not allow rear fog lamps. Previously, the failure of BMW/MINI to equip cars with rear fog lamps was generally thought to be because there wasn't a federal regulation in the US or in Canada requiring them to do so.

Would someone clarify this and identify the states? I am doubtful this is true as Volvos, Jaguars, Audis etc. are sold in the US with integral rear fog lamps.

[golf strom]

I am almost certain that no state prohibits rear fog lamps, this is in fact why Saab, Audi, Jaguar, MB, Volvo, ect, sell rear fog lamps on all their vehicles. It is possible that the marketing gurus at BMW NA think that we Americans, or at least most of us would not know how to correctly use the rear fog and possibly blind the driver behind us.
Unfortunately, how many times have you seen idiots with their front fogs on when the weather is perfect?



Bill

[jamiem]

Fog lights are cool - besides giving you and other road users better vision in marginal conditions - you get as full bank of toggle switches & better still you get LEDs in the ends of the chrome switches! (orange rear green front)

[karmuze]

....are governed at the top level by the US Code of Federal Regulations: Title 49-Standard 108-Lamps and associated equipment (131 pgs.). It mentions fog lights only one time, and says that a max. of two are permitted on the front of a car and they must be activated by a switch. Rear fog lights are permitted by omission, at the Federal level.

I checked the State statutes of the three most populous states: California, Texas, and Colorado and found this.
CALIFORNIA CODES
VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 24602
24602. (a) Any vehicle may be equipped with not more than two red fog taillamps mounted on the rear which may be lighted, in addition to the required taillamps, only when atmospheric conditions, such as fog, rain, snow, smoke, or dust, reduce the daytime or nighttime visibility of other vehicles to less than 500 feet.

TEXAS CODES
VEHICLE EQUIPMENT
CHAPTER 547
547.328. Fog Lamps Permitted
(a) A motor vehicle may be equipped with not more than two fog lamps. (b) A fog lamp shall be: (1) mounted on the front of the vehicle at a height from 12 to 30 inches; and (2) aimed so that no part of the high-intensity portion of the beam from a lamp mounted to the left of center on a vehicle projects a beam of light at a distance of 25 feet that is higher than four inches below the level of the center of the lamp. (c) lighted fog lamps may be used with lower headlamp beams as specified by section 547.333.

547.3215. Use of Federal Standard
Unless specifically prohibited by this chapter, lighting, reflective devices, and associated equipment on a vehicle or motor vehicle must comply with: (1) the current federal standards in C.F.R. 49 Section 571.108; or (2) the federal standards in that section in effect, if any, at the time the vehicle or motor vehicle was manufactured.

COLORADO CODES
VEHICLE CODE
CHAPTER 42
42-4-212. (2) Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not more than two fog lamps mounted on the front at a height of not less than twelve inches nor more than thirty inches above the level surface upon which the vehicle stands. Lighted fog lamps meeting the requirements of this subsection may be used with lower head-lamp beams as specified in section 42-4-216(1)(b).

I think these three examples are representative of how states address the use of rear fog lights, and I can't think of any reason why a state would prohibit use of rear fog lights, when the Federal Motor Vehicle Standards don't. The CA code also points out aptly, that fog lights can be useful in smokey or dusty environments as well as foggy and snowy and rainy conditions.

P.S. If anyone wants to check their own state code you can start here: http://www.versuslaw.com/Support/statutes.asp

[Sejanus]

Now when I read those regs I take them to mean that rear fog lights aren't legal in Texas. Texas says you can't have more than two fog lights and then defines a fog light as being at the front of a vehicle. Doesn't that preclude a rear mounted fog light then? Colorado seems a bit vaguer, but I still get the impression that only front mounted fog lights are legal.

[Thuma]

Thanks Jerry for a very informed post. I'm sorry to say I spent a very boring half hour using your link looking up fog light laws here in Florida and came up with zilch. I'll admit that it's probably in there somewhere, but I'll be danged If I'm gonna sift through that gobbleygook anymore! LOL :-)

[karmuze]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sejanus
Now when I read those regs I take them to mean that rear fog lights aren't legal in Texas. Texas says you can't have more than two fog lights....

HiYa Sejanus..long time no see...looks like you'll be minimotoring soon--how exciting is that!

That's the reason I included the second Texas section that says "Unless specifically prohibited by this chapter...blah, blah..." If you read thru all 7 sections of the Texas code on lights, nowhere are rear foglights mentioned. So I would interpret that as saying that rear fogs are permitted in Texas as long as they meet Federal Regulations. And the Federal Regulations don't prohibit rear fog lights---they do govern the wattage, aiming, and light intensity of all bulbs used on a vehicle, however.

Since the CO code didn't specificially address rear fog lights, I made a call to the Colo State Patrol regulations office, and talked to a trooper who told me rear fogs were permitted in CO, since they are not specifically prohibited by code. So I think the same may apply in TX as well. I would recommed that anyone in TX call their own regulation division to check for sure. BTW it only took me 6 phone calls over 4 days to get my answer in CO.

[karmuze]

Quote:

Originally posted by Thuma
I'm sorry to say I spent a very boring half hour using your link looking up fog light laws here in Florida and came up with zilch.

I found about 20 sections in the Florida revised statutes that deal with vehicle lighting. But these two were the only pertinent ones I found:

316.233 Spot lamps and auxiliary lamps
316.235 Additional lighting equipment

To find these go to Title XXIII==>section 316==>subsections 217 thru 239.7 on lighting

The code is identical to the TX one I posted above. It specifies two front fog lights are allowed in Florida, but none of the 20 sections addresses rear fog lights at all.

[Thuma]

Yes..I found all those sections and more and agree with you, no listing about them at all..front OR Rear! So, if I want to make all those phone calls, I'm sure I could verify that Florida adheres to the federal standard!
I think I'll need a few drinks before I tackle that. So, If I want to get off my behind and find where to get the full european toggle switch panel, and then trust my car to some aftermarket place to find and install rear fog lights (I've never had an aftermarket place do ANYTHING to any of my cars..I love them OME!), then I might be onto something. I wonder if my dealer wouldn't be willing to install them...and or the toggle board?

[jamiem]

why don't you yanks jusyt by the fog lights anyway and use them if its foggy (they're really not that expensive) I suppose maybe in some parts of the US you never get fog???

[erazo]

I fully intend to activate them, as they are legal in California and useful where I live. I had read a fog-light safety study which mentioned that rear fogs "may not be legal in all jurisdictions" but didn't state which, although a friend in Hawaii claims that rear fogs aren't permitted there.

Anyway, the study said that rear fogs were actually more beneficial than front fogs, but cautioned that widespread misuse (at night and when followed by another vehicle) would make them less acceptable to the general motoring public.

[Sejanus]

Quote:

Originally posted by karmuze

HiYa Sejanus..long time no see...looks like you'll be minimotoring soon--how exciting is that!

Very! I'm driving my wife crazy with my constant updates of the car's progress.

Quote:

Originally posted by karmuze

That's the reason I included the second Texas section that says "Unless specifically prohibited by this chapter...blah, blah..." If you read thru all 7 sections of the Texas code on lights, nowhere are rear foglights mentioned. So I would interpret that as saying that rear fogs are permitted in Texas as long as they meet Federal Regulations. And the Federal Regulations don't prohibit rear fog lights---they do govern the wattage, aiming, and light intensity of all bulbs used on a vehicle, however.

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally posted by karmuze

Since the CO code didn't specificially address rear fog lights, I made a call to the Colo State Patrol regulations office, and talked to a trooper who told me rear fogs were permitted in CO, since they are not specifically prohibited by code. So I think the same may apply in TX as well. I would recommed that anyone in TX call their own regulation division to check for sure. BTW it only took me 6 phone calls over 4 days to get my answer in CO.

Man, you've put a lot of effort into this! So I guess that means we're back to figuring out how to actually get the rear fog light to work then. I realize some of our more technically inclined members can probably figure out the wiring and such. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. What I need is some dealer or aftermarket shop that'll get it all hooked up for me.

[Sejanus]

Quote:

Originally posted by jamiem
why don't you yanks jusyt by the fog lights anyway and use them if its foggy (they're really not that expensive) I suppose maybe in some parts of the US you never get fog???

Oh, we get fog around here like you wouldn't believe in the winter. Unfortunately, the problem isn't a question of choosing to buy them or not. Front fog lights are an option on the MINI in the States (and I have purchased them), but the US MINIs come with the rear fog light essentially disabled and no (official) option to activate them. This is apparently due to the fact they aren't legal in some states and MINI felt it easier to produce a uniformly equipped car for the American market (as far as we can figure). I'd gladly pay for them as an extra option.

[sjbartnik]

I'm surprised no one has done any testing yet. When I get my car I will but I was hoping someone would pull out a multimeter before then

Word is that the wiring for the rear fog light is already present in US-spec cars. There is some debate about this but it should be easy enough to figure out: remove the harness plug from the taillight cluster and count the wires. You would need:

1) Power for taillight
2) Power for brake light
3) Power for turn signal light
4) Power for rear fog light
5) Ground wire for cluster

So if the harness plug has 5 wires going into it, then it sounds like we've got the wiring for the rear fog.

Of course you would also need the bulb, but other reports here have indicated that on US cars, the bulb is already installed in the bulb holder.

Next step is to check out the fusebox. Is there a fuse specifically labeled for rear fog light? Is it missing? Worth a look. Check the fuse box inside the car and also the one under the hood.

Next part is where a service manual comes in handy or some help from our UK friends. Word is that the wire for the rear fog at the taillight cluster is yellow/brown. If we're lucky, that wire goes all the way to the toggle switch panel but I kind of doubt that based on the construction of the toggle switch panel.

So what would be really nice is if we could get some digital pics of the harness plug and wiring at the toggle switch panel for US cars and UK cars. This would help determine if the toggle switch panels are directly interchangeable -- would help if the pics are from cars with identical spec, such as DSC vs. ASC+T, etc.

If the wiring coming out of the toggle switch panel is the same, i.e. same number of wires, same colors in UK vs. US, then it would seem the Euro toggle panel would be plug and play to activate the rear fog light.

As some have conjectured, there may be a lighting control module. But I would suspect if MINI's implementation of the on-board computer is any indication, the module is the same regardless of whether the car is US or UK spec, and you just need the switch and possibly a fuse to activate the rear fog light. If there is a lighting control module then perhaps also a computer programming change, and that's the big "if." Anybody a dealer service tech or have access to a dealer service tech for this kind of information? Seems a MINI service insider would know the answer to this part of the equation.

If it can be identified which wire from the toggle panel is responsible for switching the rear fog light, it should be simple enough to apply +12v to the wire to determine if this makes the rear fog light come on. Of course, before doing this, might be a good idea to measure voltages coming IN to the toggle panel to make sure 12v is the right level - easy enough with a voltmeter. If that does the trick, then the Euro switch panel would be the way to go to get the rear fog light working.

I think with the multinational resource that is MINI2, this is a problem that can be fairly easily solved.

[MiniShuttle]

It looks like all the wiring is there.

http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...g&pagenumber=3

An the details of the switch panel are here

http://bobodyne.com/web-docs/robots/...tch/index.html

Now for your question, what happens if you apply a signal to the rear fog switch of the us spec car? I don't know, I won't have a car for a couple months yet. Would it confuse the computer? Maybe. Would hurt the computer? I wouldn't expect it to. Does the feature need to be enabled in the computer? Is there a relay missing in the fog light circuit?