[moonshine]

After a really scary crash about 6 months ago, it got me wondering about the viability of fitting a nice Sabet or Sparco 4 point harness for those quick drives to keep me in the seat should things go pear shaped again

Some questions then re. this

if one was to use a 4point, then would the airbags deploy in event of a crash?

how would one attach the harness shoulder straps in the absence of a roll cage?

is the seat back capable of taking the compression loadings if the harness shoulder straps are leading to any angle below the horizontal, or is a race seat really necessary?

why are the 3" thick strap harnesse with the aircraft style quick release buckle not approved for uk roads, but good enough for the FIA, whereas the slighter built 2" webbing harnesses with the regular seatbelt fitting are?

and any other thoughts, ideas or opinions accepted

Gerry

[mainlinemenace]

Crikey!!!!!!

moonshine is really looking to cook it if hes wantin a harness an all

[moonshine]

Quote:

Originally posted by mainlinemenace
Crikey!!!!!!

moonshine is really looking to cook it if hes wantin a harness an all

No....actually i want to protect myself from your sister!!!!

GErry

[mainlinemenace]

no..no bad idea....think bout it

if ur all strapped in then she can do what she wants to u ....well maybe thats a good thing!!!!!


[size=1]menaceisalltrussedupandnowhere2go

[redchilli]

I posted this on a previous thread about seatbelts :-

While a harness may seem like it is giving you more protection, it may in fact not be the case.
Harnesses are ok in the type of accident you are likely to have on a racetrack, but they don't perform as well in the types of accidents you are likely to have on the road.

Remember, on a racetrack, you would be wearing a helmet. During the first impact, harnesses will stretch (theyre designed to do this). After the first impact, they offer much less protection as they do not re tighten (no inertia reel). This is not so bad if you are wearing a helmet as you have secondary head protection, but on the road, in a severe impact, you are likely to have secondary impacts with little protection to your head.

The seatbelt, seatbelt pyrotechnic restraints, and airbag form a complete system. Replace any part of that system with something different, and the system will likely not perform as well as the original.

Lee

[HarryHBMCC]

Volvo is experimenting with some 4-point harnesses so we may see them in the future. They introduced seatbelts in the 50's and nearly 50 years later there are finally 3-point seat belts in the rear of many cars and overall >75% usage in the states... geez, when will people learn?

http://www.xpresssites.com/lee/lacro...ory_306465.asp

p.s. I learned how to drive in a '76 Volvo 242. Still love that car! My Dad still has a 240 that he drives. 10 years without a fatality in one is pretty good.

Harry

[minigal]

i had the 2" 4 points sparco harness installed in my MINI for 3 reasons:
1- comfort (don't like being tied down diagonally)
2- ease (original seatbelt hard for me to reach)
3- looks ( a tad superficial? so what!)

the original seatbelt remains unaffected. i keep it attached in the back of the seat so the airbag mechanism is operational.

here are some pics...

[minigal]

no drilling of any kind

[minigal]

notice original seatbelt attached

[minigal]

very practical for the backseat passenger
actually, when i fold the seat down, i give those 2 belts a bit of slack and bingo, i'm in business

i am totally happy with my installation. am i less safe? i'll take my chances but i doubt it. am i more comfortable? you bet your sparco!

[flyboy2160]

minigal

i have used a 7 point deist harness on the street for 14 years and will be installing a 5 or 7 point harness in my mcs.

i disagree with red chili's remarks unless i see actual crash data. i don't think the inertial belts retract with enough force to pull you back into the seat after the initial crash [edit] stretch/move [edit: you'll need the airbag to work to keep from hitting the steering wheel.]

i think your installation is dangerous. the harness installation guides i read before installing my deists warned against a downward angle aft of the seats of more than 15 degrees or an attach point more than 4 inches below your shoulders.

the steep angle you have will make the belts compress the seat back in an accident. it's most likely not designed to take that load and you could crush your spine.

i'm going to run my harness straight aft from the seat tops.

[minigal]

is that what i get for leaving the installation to professionals?

flyboy: 2 words i dont understand: deist & aft (2 excuses: french & not mechanically inclined)
are you saying that the belts should be attached into the seat? wouldn't that compromise the airbag's modus operandi? (i do speak latin though )

would it be possible for you to show me where exactly you would anchor the 4 points?
thanks

[flyboy2160]

Minigal

Deist is an american company that has been making auto safety/racing accessories for about 40 years. If you watch motorsports on tv, sometimes you can see their name on the race car seat belts.

LOLOL “aft” is an airplane designer’s term for “back.” LOL so I’ve been talking about the belt run in back of the front seats.

I don’t have my mcs yet (I got the vin today for production next week!! YEAY!! YEAY!!), so I don’t know exactly how I’ll attach the belts. Your lap belt attach us fine; I’ll do the same. I’ll drill a hole in the floor just forward (LOL another airplane term) of the seats for attaching the crotch belt eyebolt.

I’m thinking about running the shoulder belts over the front seat like you did (instead of cutting holes through the seat back), then attaching to the rear seat shoulder points. You can just see one in one of your pictures. since this may be too long a run for webbing alone, I may make up some of the distance with cable. I want to avoid, if I can, a sturdy bar across the back seat area like mini mania did in their race mini. You should look at those pictures and note how the belts run back to that bar. It’s ok to go down to the floor after going over a bar like that.

(i just checked-the pictures on the mini mania website are down)

If you think this is getting a little messy in the back, you’re right. I’ll be removing my rear seats, so I don’t care.

Hope this helps. If I have any more ideas for a clean, simple, safe installation, I’ll let you know.

[minigal]

and it is us women who are supposed to be complicated???

thanks for clarifying those 2 words flyboy. now i'll know what he's talking about next time i chat up an airline pilot
as far as my install goes, i think i'll leave it just the way it is ( i must like living dangerously...) i am not racing the MINI after all and i dont want to have webbing all over the back seat nor am i considering a roll bar at this point.

for the record and for what it's worth, the harness was installed in a high end cars shop and although this may not guarantee competence, i gather they would be liable for a dangerous installation and as such must take measures to protect themselves against such claims.

i certainly am looking forward to seeing your installation, drilling and all. ah, boys and their toys...

[moonshine]

Here is an extract from the Sparco website

"It is strongly recommended that the shoulder harnesses are fitted as close to horizontal as possible. It is a must that the angle of the shoulder harness does not exceed 45 degrees in relation to the theoretical horizontal axis of the mounting points. It is recommended that the harnesses be mounted to the fixing points suggested by the car manufacturer. The fixing points should always be reinforced by a steel plate fitted on the outer side of the car, not by welding or pop riveting. After an accident or a heavy crash, it is a must to replace the harnesses and carefully re-check their fixing points in the car. Belts do not have to be in contact with parts which can damage it. Should the belt show any wearing or cuts, it must be immediately replaced."

gerry

[alexcroft]

So how much is one of those 4 poinmt harnesses?

Alex.

[redchilli]

I've copied the following directly from the Lotus cars factory run bbs where there was a discussion on the subject of harnesses :-

<---snip--->

I'd love to provide you with references, but what I know of the topic is from conversations with race car builders and track officials in my area. I am not an expert in any of these matters, so this is my hearsay account.

The first claim is that they are poor at preventing submarining. The second claim is that the central meeting location of the belts causes the shoulder belts to pull upwards on the lap belts, increasing the chance of soft tissue damage in the abdomen. In both respects, some people feel that a 4-point system may actually be worse than a 3-point in many frontal collisions.

Now, I believe Lotus uses Safety Devices for their 4-point belt systems, who in turn supply Schroth ASM belts. This is Schroth's anti-sub-marine device, which is a loop of extra material in one of their shoulder belts that is held flat by special stitching with a calculated failure load. On initial impact, the stitching is designed to fail, allowing that belt to lengthen slightly and the upper body to tilt forward (a similar effect occurs with a 3-point belt), causing you to pivot against the lap belt and counteracting the tendency to submarine. The issue with this design is that in secondary impacts, the shoulder belt with the deployed ASM is now slack instead of tight against the occupant. Even with the remaining shoulder belt snug, the upper torso is potentially less restrained than with a 3-point belt because each shoulder belt only crosses half the width of the torso and therefore cannot cross its center of mass. I've seen photos of a Schroth-equipped BMW 3-series in which this failure mode is said to have occurred; the passenger apparently says he was fine during the initial impact, but once the ASM deployed he became "loose" enough that his helmet impacted the windshield and dash later in the crash sequence.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the 4-point harness holds you in place much better than a 3-point harness as far as normal driving forces are concerned. And it's probably superior to a 3-point in rollover situations, so long as your roof does not collapse. It is its frontal crash safety that is in question.

<---snip--->

so, remember, with your original seatbelts, they are connected to pyrotechnic tensioners that actively tighten the seatbelts more in the event of an impact. This is NOT the case with harnesses. The tightest they will be in a crash is however tight you fit them while you are driving. Once the stitching failes to absorb some of the impact, they will become loose, unlike seatbelts which will return to approx the tension they were when you were driving.

Either way, something is better than nothing, but what happens if there is a problem with the aftermarket harnesses. It would be much easier to persue someone like BMW if it was their design that failed, but what if the aftermarket harness fitter turns round and says, well the customer wanted them like that. Check any disclaimers properly before putting your life at risk.

If the harness doesn't perform properly in an accident, you may not be around to take action against the harness fitters !

Lee

[moonshine]

Quote:

Originally posted by redchilli
I've copied the following directly from the Lotus cars factory run bbs where there was a discussion on the subject of harnesses :-

Not disputing your thoughts here..

just as a thread for thought

Here is the link to safetydevices web page, specifically with cngles for mounting etc

http://www.safetydevices.co.uk/oldsite/seat00.html

Gerry

[moonshine]

I'll mail Safety Devices and ask them straight up and post the reply here when i get it....no point in speculating about things we don't really know about

LEts ask the pros (Safety Devices make the JCW challenge roll cages) so they should know a thing or two.

gerry

[macncheese]

Assuming you use the harness for daily driving, how do you lean foward to check for traffic when making a turn or merging?


--
Cheese