MINI2

PEAK JCWGP · Jul 26th, 2007, 03:56 PM

When does the rev-limiter cut in on a GP?

GBMINI · Jul 26th, 2007, 04:49 PM

About 7100

gpmick · Jul 26th, 2007, 06:38 PM

Yes about 7100

sounds great just before it cuts in though

PEAK JCWGP · Jul 26th, 2007, 09:16 PM

That seems right with mine, yet the factory say peak power is at 7,100 rpm too!
???

Never, in over 100 cars owned, have i ever known peak power produced at the rev limiter!

GBMINI · Jul 27th, 2007, 12:50 AM

Peak hp is at rpm limit - but peak TORQUE (the more useful stuff) is much lower down:
GPMINI.net ? Blog Archive » The GP torque / power curve

PEAK JCWGP · Jul 27th, 2007, 05:48 AM

Cheers for that but very strange, all the same, for the peak bhp to be at the rev limiter.

sam_a156 · Jul 27th, 2007, 07:20 AM

Is that really the case - GP rev limiter higher than JCW?

As the engine is essentially the same, then it should be safe to assume that raising the rev limiter of a JCW (plus bits and pieces) slightly to say 7200 should be ok. My hp curve looks exactly like that...and I believe that there would be still more on tap in my engine beyond the more conservative (6850?) limit of JCW.

beatbox · Jul 27th, 2007, 01:44 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by sam_a156 (original)

Is that really the case - GP rev limiter higher than JCW?

As the engine is essentially the same, then it should be safe to assume that raising the rev limiter of a JCW (plus bits and pieces) slightly to say 7200 should be ok. My hp curve looks exactly like that...and I believe that there would be still more on tap in my engine beyond the more conservative (6850?) limit of JCW.

I agree the JCW limiter should be about 7100-7200.Peak power at rev limiter is strange!

CarterMD · Jul 27th, 2007, 04:06 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by GBMINI (original)

Peak hp is at rpm limit - but peak TORQUE (the more useful stuff) is much lower down:

Absolutely correct...

The GP got 8HP more than a standard JCW. This is made by a 100rpm higher rev-limiter and some minor changes at the software. Nothing else....

johnmdanskin · Jul 28th, 2007, 03:04 PM

I'll be a heretic and say that horsepower matters if you can get at it.

People (me too) like torque because lots of torque is indicative of a wide power band (horsepower everywhere). Cars without much torque require high rpms and a lot of shifting.

Formula 1 cars don't have that much torque. Mini Cooper GP has 184 foot pounds of torque. BMW F1 car has about 269 foot pounds of torque (about the same as an e46 m3). The thing is, HP=Torque*RPM and F1 cars rev more than 2x higher than that m3.

BMW took some euro-diesels to the 24 hrs of thunderhill race in california last year. The diesels had less HP than the M3s they were racing against, but more torque. The result was that the M3s took off faster, but then had to shift in the straight, which cost them about 1/10 seconds. The diesels didn't have to shift and pretty much caught up again. And, the diesels were easier to drive. Still, HP is what makes you go.

AlexF2003 · Jul 28th, 2007, 09:44 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by CarterMD (original)

Absolutely correct...

The GP got 8HP more than a standard JCW. This is made by a 100rpm higher rev-limiter and some minor changes at the software. Nothing else....

bhp = ( torque x rpm ) / 5252

so a little more rpm and a little more torque gets you a little more bhp

Jaw_F430 · Jul 28th, 2007, 10:07 PM

I thought the GP had a bigger intercooler which provided the extra power (as the air entering the engine would be more dense i.e slightly cooler therfore expanding more when in the combustion chamber), I didnt know about the rev limiter being raised. So can this be done to a JCW cooper s.

When the JCW software was installed on my car was the rev limiter raised from the standard cooper s?

GTT 280 · Jul 29th, 2007, 07:21 AM

the GP uses a stock cam shaft right, the same as in the MINI one?
the GP also uses a really small IC, and has no major modifications under the bonnet.

CarterMD · Jul 29th, 2007, 07:35 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by GTT 270 (original)

the GP uses a stock cam shaft right, the same as in the MINI one?

Absolutely right.. no difference !

Quote:

the GP also uses a really small IC, and has no major modifications under the bonnet.

Correct... only mod is the intercooler with two more rows and a lightly changed ECU.

GTT 280 · Jul 29th, 2007, 07:43 AM

This is amazing how well the marketing has worked. Sorry, but i just wouldn't buy a GP. If not for the waste of cash, then simply for the fact i wouldn't want to feel embarrased having people think i bought it for the power and bespoke engineering - urgh. It's just a shiny production car, nothing more.

tut tut.

Cheers,
K.

GBMINI · Jul 29th, 2007, 01:24 PM

Well, I'm glad you thoroughly researched before arriving at your oh-so-perfect conclusion, K ...

wiggis · Jul 29th, 2007, 07:34 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by GTT 270 (original)

This is amazing how well the marketing has worked. Sorry, but i just wouldn't buy a GP. If not for the waste of cash, then simply for the fact i wouldn't want to feel embarrased having people think i bought it for the power and bespoke engineering - urgh. It's just a shiny production car, nothing more.

Hmmmm. You protest too much methinks. Got too much money tied up in your GTT 270 by any chance?

The JCW GP makes solid financial sense as a limited run special little car - it will always have a following and people ready to buy for good money. They all currently have a bullet proof BMW warranty, free servicing etc., and likely residuals of better than 65% at 3 years old. There are only 10 available from MINI currently, and that number has been falling steadily for months now. By the year end, it is likely to be next to impossible to get a clean low mileage example. Supply and demand means that prices will stabilise and remain firm - the 440 or so owners in the UK will set the price.

Try a similar thought experiment with your GTT 270 and then come back and talk to us GP owners about wasting cash. Not so much wasted, as flushed down the bog IMHO on a hard to insure heavily modified car.

Joogle · Jul 29th, 2007, 08:23 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by wiggis (original)

Hmmmm. You protest too much methinks. Got too much money tied up in your GTT 270 by any chance?

The JCW GP makes solid financial sense as a limited run special little car - it will always have a following and people ready to buy for good money. They all currently have a bullet proof BMW warranty, free servicing etc., and likely residuals of better than 65% at 3 years old. There are only 10 available from MINI currently, and that number has been falling steadily for months now. By the year end, it is likely to be next to impossible to get a clean low mileage example. Supply and demand means that prices will stabilise and remain firm - the 440 or so owners in the UK will set the price.

Try a similar thought experiment with your GTT 270 and then come back and talk to us GP owners about wasting cash. Not so much wasted, as flushed down the bog IMHO on a hard to insure heavily modified car.

What more can you say.....

GTT 280 · Jul 30th, 2007, 01:36 PM

superb, backlash and heated debate

one word.... Lambo

GBMINI · Jul 30th, 2007, 01:52 PM

one number ... $1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Jul 26th, 2007, 03:56 PM	#1
PEAK JCWGP MINI2 Regular Join Date: Mar 2007 Local Time: 08:22 AM Posts: 46 Offline	GP Rev-limiter When does the rev-limiter cut in on a GP?

Jul 26th, 2007, 04:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
GBMINI MINI2 Master Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gloucester, MA, USA Local Time: 04:22 AM Posts: 7,596 Offline	About 7100 Ian C. Gloucester, MA, USA (UK expat) driving GPMINI and Convertible GBMINI#6

Jul 27th, 2007, 12:50 AM	#5 (permalink)
GBMINI MINI2 Master Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gloucester, MA, USA Local Time: 04:22 AM Posts: 7,596 Offline	Peak hp is at rpm limit - but peak TORQUE (the more useful stuff) is much lower down: GPMINI.net ? Blog Archive » The GP torque / power curve Ian C. Gloucester, MA, USA (UK expat) driving GPMINI and Convertible GBMINI#6

Jul 28th, 2007, 09:44 PM	#11 (permalink)
AlexF2003 AFRacing My Classifieds Join Date: May 2006 Location: Newbury Local Time: 09:22 AM Posts: 257 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by CarterMD (original) Absolutely correct... The GP got 8HP more than a standard JCW. This is made by a 100rpm higher rev-limiter and some minor changes at the software. Nothing else.... bhp = ( torque x rpm ) / 5252 so a little more rpm and a little more torque gets you a little more bhp Alex F - AFRacing LTD

Jul 29th, 2007, 07:21 AM	#13 (permalink)
GTT 280 The Power Cube My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2002 Local Time: 09:22 AM Posts: 2,503 Offline	the GP uses a stock cam shaft right, the same as in the MINI one? the GP also uses a really small IC, and has no major modifications under the bonnet. Too many mods to list, PM me if the cat needs killing...

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Jul 26th, 2007, 06:38 PM	#3 (permalink)
gpmick GP 56 MCK 0774 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: stoke Local Time: 09:22 AM Posts: 604 Offline	Yes about 7100 sounds great just before it cuts in though

Jul 26th, 2007, 09:16 PM	#4 (permalink)
PEAK JCWGP MINI2 Regular Join Date: Mar 2007 Local Time: 08:22 AM Posts: 46 Offline	That seems right with mine, yet the factory say peak power is at 7,100 rpm too! ??? Never, in over 100 cars owned, have i ever known peak power produced at the rev limiter!

Jul 27th, 2007, 05:48 AM	#6 (permalink)
PEAK JCWGP MINI2 Regular Join Date: Mar 2007 Local Time: 08:22 AM Posts: 46 Offline	Cheers for that but very strange, all the same, for the peak bhp to be at the rev limiter.

Jul 27th, 2007, 07:20 AM	#7 (permalink)
sam_a156 Flying Finn My Classifieds Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warsaw Local Time: 10:22 AM Posts: 371 Offline	Is that really the case - GP rev limiter higher than JCW? As the engine is essentially the same, then it should be safe to assume that raising the rev limiter of a JCW (plus bits and pieces) slightly to say 7200 should be ok. My hp curve looks exactly like that...and I believe that there would be still more on tap in my engine beyond the more conservative (6850?) limit of JCW.

Jul 27th, 2007, 01:44 PM	#8 (permalink)
beatbox MINI2 Regular My Classifieds Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: newcastle Local Time: 09:22 AM Posts: 102 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by sam_a156 (original) Is that really the case - GP rev limiter higher than JCW? As the engine is essentially the same, then it should be safe to assume that raising the rev limiter of a JCW (plus bits and pieces) slightly to say 7200 should be ok. My hp curve looks exactly like that...and I believe that there would be still more on tap in my engine beyond the more conservative (6850?) limit of JCW. I agree the JCW limiter should be about 7100-7200.Peak power at rev limiter is strange!

Jul 27th, 2007, 04:06 PM	#9 (permalink)
CarterMD MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ulm, Germany Local Time: 10:22 AM Posts: 23 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by GBMINI (original) Peak hp is at rpm limit - but peak TORQUE (the more useful stuff) is much lower down: Absolutely correct... The GP got 8HP more than a standard JCW. This is made by a 100rpm higher rev-limiter and some minor changes at the software. Nothing else....

Jul 28th, 2007, 03:04 PM	#10 (permalink)
johnmdanskin Goodbye Pork Pie Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Providence, RI Local Time: 04:22 AM Posts: 31 Offline	I'll be a heretic and say that horsepower matters if you can get at it. People (me too) like torque because lots of torque is indicative of a wide power band (horsepower everywhere). Cars without much torque require high rpms and a lot of shifting. Formula 1 cars don't have that much torque. Mini Cooper GP has 184 foot pounds of torque. BMW F1 car has about 269 foot pounds of torque (about the same as an e46 m3). The thing is, HP=Torque*RPM and F1 cars rev more than 2x higher than that m3. BMW took some euro-diesels to the 24 hrs of thunderhill race in california last year. The diesels had less HP than the M3s they were racing against, but more torque. The result was that the M3s took off faster, but then had to shift in the straight, which cost them about 1/10 seconds. The diesels didn't have to shift and pretty much caught up again. And, the diesels were easier to drive. Still, HP is what makes you go.

Jul 28th, 2007, 10:07 PM	#12 (permalink)
Jaw_F430 MINI2 Senior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: 7600rpm Local Time: 09:22 AM Posts: 730 Offline	I thought the GP had a bigger intercooler which provided the extra power (as the air entering the engine would be more dense i.e slightly cooler therfore expanding more when in the combustion chamber), I didnt know about the rev limiter being raised. So can this be done to a JCW cooper s. When the JCW software was installed on my car was the rev limiter raised from the standard cooper s?

Jul 29th, 2007, 07:35 AM	#14 (permalink)
CarterMD MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ulm, Germany Local Time: 10:22 AM Posts: 23 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by GTT 270 (original) the GP uses a stock cam shaft right, the same as in the MINI one? Absolutely right.. no difference ! Quote: the GP also uses a really small IC, and has no major modifications under the bonnet. Correct... only mod is the intercooler with two more rows and a lightly changed ECU.

Jul 29th, 2007, 07:43 AM	#15 (permalink)
GTT 280 The Power Cube My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2002 Local Time: 09:22 AM Posts: 2,503 Offline	Incredible This is amazing how well the marketing has worked. Sorry, but i just wouldn't buy a GP. If not for the waste of cash, then simply for the fact i wouldn't want to feel embarrased having people think i bought it for the power and bespoke engineering - urgh. It's just a shiny production car, nothing more. tut tut. Cheers, K. Too many mods to list, PM me if the cat needs killing...

Jul 29th, 2007, 01:24 PM	#16 (permalink)
GBMINI MINI2 Master Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gloucester, MA, USA Local Time: 04:22 AM Posts: 7,596 Offline	Well, I'm glad you thoroughly researched before arriving at your oh-so-perfect conclusion, K ... Ian C. Gloucester, MA, USA (UK expat) driving GPMINI and Convertible GBMINI#6

Jul 29th, 2007, 07:34 PM	#17 (permalink)
wiggis VW GT Sport 170 TDI My Classifieds Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxford Local Time: 09:22 AM Posts: 343 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by GTT 270 (original) This is amazing how well the marketing has worked. Sorry, but i just wouldn't buy a GP. If not for the waste of cash, then simply for the fact i wouldn't want to feel embarrased having people think i bought it for the power and bespoke engineering - urgh. It's just a shiny production car, nothing more. Hmmmm. You protest too much methinks. Got too much money tied up in your GTT 270 by any chance? The JCW GP makes solid financial sense as a limited run special little car - it will always have a following and people ready to buy for good money. They all currently have a bullet proof BMW warranty, free servicing etc., and likely residuals of better than 65% at 3 years old. There are only 10 available from MINI currently, and that number has been falling steadily for months now. By the year end, it is likely to be next to impossible to get a clean low mileage example. Supply and demand means that prices will stabilise and remain firm - the 440 or so owners in the UK will set the price. Try a similar thought experiment with your GTT 270 and then come back and talk to us GP owners about wasting cash. Not so much wasted, as flushed down the bog IMHO on a hard to insure heavily modified car.

Jul 29th, 2007, 08:23 PM	#18 (permalink)
Joogle MINI2 Master Join Date: May 2006 Location: Midlands Local Time: 09:22 AM Posts: 915 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by wiggis (original) Hmmmm. You protest too much methinks. Got too much money tied up in your GTT 270 by any chance? The JCW GP makes solid financial sense as a limited run special little car - it will always have a following and people ready to buy for good money. They all currently have a bullet proof BMW warranty, free servicing etc., and likely residuals of better than 65% at 3 years old. There are only 10 available from MINI currently, and that number has been falling steadily for months now. By the year end, it is likely to be next to impossible to get a clean low mileage example. Supply and demand means that prices will stabilise and remain firm - the 440 or so owners in the UK will set the price. Try a similar thought experiment with your GTT 270 and then come back and talk to us GP owners about wasting cash. Not so much wasted, as flushed down the bog IMHO on a hard to insure heavily modified car. What more can you say..... Its a very difficult job and the only way to get through it is we all work together as a team.....

Jul 30th, 2007, 01:36 PM	#19 (permalink)
GTT 280 The Power Cube My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2002 Local Time: 09:22 AM Posts: 2,503 Offline	superb, backlash and heated debate one word.... Lambo Too many mods to list, PM me if the cat needs killing...

Jul 30th, 2007, 01:52 PM	#20 (permalink)
GBMINI MINI2 Master Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gloucester, MA, USA Local Time: 04:22 AM Posts: 7,596 Offline	one number ... $1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Ian C. Gloucester, MA, USA (UK expat) driving GPMINI and Convertible GBMINI#6

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