[TallAndy]

http://www.bbrgti.com/works.php

BBR Claim that the works conversion isn't that great.... The link is a comparison of the BBR 240 and The JC Works conversion...

I mean obviously BBR will put JC works down to make there conversion sound better

what do you lot think?

[LMB]

Firstly my Works cost me £3,500 and when I've eventually sold my Supercharger (to someone that’s going to pay) it will have ended up costing me £2,850. That makes the BBR £1900 more expensive.

Secondly the Works Kit was in development for years and they added the new Supercharger to ensure that no matter how hard you ragged your car it was well within it's limitations. Granted so far it does seem the Supercharger is reliable enough with 200bhp through it, the Hartge boys have shown us that. But 240bhp? Only time will tell. I do know that should I wish to modify my Works to get 240bhp the new Supercharger can handle it better.

Finally which one do you think will retain most of your original outlay when time comes to sell? A dealership won’t touch a BBR cause it can’t sell it with a warranty.

It’s a cheap shot at the end of the day and ok I’m biased cause I’ve got the Works but I’ve always respected BBR until now. I thought they were a more professional outfit than that.

[stryder]

Nothing new to say really, but a 240hp conversion vs a 200 hp... Obviously they're going to be different - and besides, its not like BBR doesn't have a serious bias to get you to buy their product.

Its not a review, its marketing.. no surprises really.

[Kev'sCoop]

I have driven the works and for three and a half grand its a poor show not that big a difference. I would wast my money on it the biggest let down is the exhaust i have had my standard s parked beside one and my car drowned it out Bah. Though i also would grudge my hard earned wedge using a non-warrenty covered tunner. Its down to the buyer BBr can say what they want at then end of the day people will buy what they want from people who own the cars or those that have driven them not those that supply them.

kev

[Humourl3ss]

As much as I like BBR's website for its brashness, it really wouldn't kill them to hire a spell checker. I see no less than three typos on that one page.

-CW

[bigbaddaboom]

Kev, you must have a hole in your exhaust, 'cos my car sounds a lot louder than the standard car....

[Tonyt3]

Well I put my Works exhaust on my wife's standard S, and you can't tell the difference from Standard. They bill you 900 quid for the works exhaust, and if you see it being fitted (like I did) you're going to thing - 900 for that?!? The 'slash cut' is a simple a stick on piece -like you'd buy from halfords for 30quid - and the diameter of the pipe is less than the standard pipe.

I stayed with my Playmini system on my Works, and it sounds tremendous..

Anyway back on thread. If BBR spent as much money on their design of their ECU upgrade as they did their website, then I guess the quality of their product will shine through. Not. Seriously, if you were looking at a propectous from a company and they got basic spelling ang grammar wrong, you would think they were cowboys.

Sorry if I have spelling or grammar wrong, but I'm pi55ed, what's their excuse?

[LMB]

Quote: Originally Posted by bigbaddaboom

Kev, you must have a hole in your exhaust, 'cos my car sounds a lot louder than the standard car....

So does mine.

[ChrisBuer]

Could I put a playmini exhaust on and keep the JCW tips?

Or could I even fit a Miltek header and exhaust and keep my JCW tips?

[Tonyt3]

Quote: Originally Posted by ChrisBuer

Could I put a playmini exhaust on and keep the JCW tips?

Or could I even fit a Miltek header and exhaust and keep my JCW tips?

The Playmini 'tips' are welded on. I don't think the JCW tips would fit the pipes anyway, but if the weather clears in the next few days I'll have a look if its possible. I also intend measuring the jcw/playmini pipe diameters for comparison....


The JCW exhaust just does not look like over a grand worth of kit, fancy tip or not.... Shame you can't de-s[pec it from the Works package and fit your own...

[Hobbe]

I like my JCW catback system, and pretty soon I´ll like it even more when the Milltek manifold and sportcat are bolted on

[Root Ginger]

Hmm,

I'm sure JCW didn't spend two years on the conversion and then only spend 20 mins modifying the head!

What BBR fail to mention is that every single part on that conversion has been destruction tested in BMW's multi million pound testing facilities. They obviously found that the supercharger wasn't up to handling that power for long term longevity and so decided to change it (modify it). How many SC's did they destruction test to decide that it could handle the power and more importantly, for how long?

The other thing I notice is they don't compare the two like conversions. I.e. The JCW S to the BBR 218 conversion.

I think what we are going to find in the future is that when these cars get into high mileages that the BBR's Hartges and Digitecs of this world are going to be dieing premature deaths while the JCW's will probably survive to 150,000 miles before major work is required.

The other thing we have to look at is resale. The aftermarket conversions are gonna be worth a few hundred quid more than a standard S while the JCW is gonna be worth about a grand more (porobably more) after 5 years. They're also gonna hold their value more than any other MINI.

It also depends on how long you intend on keeping the car. A few years? Then get an aftermarket. You wont have to worry about mechanicals and wont have lost too much money on the car. 4 or 5 years and you're probably leaning towards the JCW. 6 years plus and you'd be stupid to buy anything but the JCW unless performance is your only objective and money is no object.

Really what I'm trying to say is you have to look at the whole picture. You may be saving money in one hand and losing it out of the other. Sometimes you have to spend money at the outset to save money in the long run

[greatgro]

Don't kid yourself about the JCW. They didn't do all this research and testing and blah, blah, blah. Sure they did some but quite frankly, the S is a DETUNED works MINI. The pulley they put on the S supercharger is ridiculously large on purpose. So the more proper pulley (15% reduction) could go on the JCW version and still be reliable. The key here is how the S supercharger doesn't go anywhere near its revving limits. And as far as the polished head goes, that's just to justify the high cost of the kit I'm sure. Tests have shown that just polishing a head does very little to add power gains to an S. And what it gives is only at the highest RPMs. And as far as the extra coating on the JCW supercharge, even John Cooper Works will tell you it's for slightly better boost - NOT reliabilty. Nothing included in the JCW kit will help reliabilty. The only thing you get for your peace and mind is the warranty up to 50k miles. I put on 30k miles a year, so even the JCW warranty is pretty useless to me. I don't think any car will crap out in 21 months. That's all my warranty will last anyway. Now if it makes you feel better that the JCW will last longer than aftermarket parts, good for you but you're just dreaming. If there are problems with any of the kits or aftermarket parts, it won't be until after 50k miles anyway so the JCW warranty is really a non-factor.

Yes I guess I am a little bitter towards the JCW kit but only b/c it is so ridiculously expensive. I wouldn't buy it if I had 50 million in the bank. And the way they offer it - dealer installed - everyone is ripping you off - John Cooper Works, the dealer AND MINIUSA. If the thing was factory installed for $3k, I probably would have done it. And even $3 is a rip-off. For the $3k upgrade from the Cooper to Cooper S, you get a Supercharger, a 6-speed Getrag transmission, stronger engine internals, larger (and much more expensive) wheels and tires, sport seats and traction control. That's a good buy. But $6k + for basically a pulley, a hundred dollar supercharger coating, a polished head, and a cheap-looking exhaust??? You kidding me?

BTW, I've got a 19% pulley, a beautiful, powerful, polished UUC exhaust and the madness intake. I've got about as much horsepower as the JCW and probably 15lbs more torque. In other words my MINI will blow the JCW away. I've also spent only about $1600 US dollars. Oh yeah and I'll be out of warranty by the fall so that's not even an issue!

Sorry if my post sounds harsh.

[LMB]

Its horses for courses Mr gro. I did my homework before I got the Works and for me it was the right choice.

Oh and if I had $50 million in the bank I wouldn't get a Works either. I don't think NOS would be covered.

[Tonyt3]

Quote: Originally Posted by greatgro

Don't kid yourself about the JCW.
Sorry if my post sounds harsh.

The main issue is that in the USA you have much better warranty laws anyway. In the UK any mod potentially invlidates the warranty. One S with a piper cross system fitted had the head gasket low, and BMW dealer refused to cover the work under warranty. In the US, BMW would have to prove that the mod caused the failure, in the UK, they don't have to do any such thing. Now thats harsh, and its the reason that many people view the warranty as being an issue.

However, saying that the standard S is well up for modifing without any potential warranty work in the first 50,000 miles is very short sighted. We have two cooper S's, and they have both had numerous warranty issues already. before modifing. OK, the Supercharger hasn't packed up or anything yet, but jobs like having both steering racks fail, power steering fail, coolant system fail, numerous electronic failures etc all show that this isn't some overly engineered car with huge room for modifing at all, rather that it has many weaknesses and potential failures. I am not denying that there is also many ways of further developing the car for more power, just saying that when you take these various ways of increasing the stress on the engine and ancillary componets, you are increasing the risk of failure, not decreasing it.

The length of time of the warranty is irrelevant. Its measured on distance covered for most drivers anyway, and it doesn't matter how long the time is to reach this distance is covered, the distance remains the same. If a seriously modified supercharger speed reduces the component life by a set factor, say 50%, then that component will fail at a set distance, not time interval. IF, and I say IF, speeding up the supercharger by 20% reduces its mean time between failure from for example 64000 miles to 32000 miles, then a warranty would be a very useful thing. These figures are completly made up, but all components of all engines will eventually fail at some point. If you exceed the tolerances that the manufacturer has built in, the risk is that you hasten a failure. Thats when warranty becomes a factor.

The other main factor is resale. So you get bored of your car after 18 months and want to sell it. The new purchaser asks "what effect on the warranty has these mods had"... you then have to tell them that your warranty is effectivly worthless but hey, don't worry, theres nothing that could go wrong because I say so. BMW don't know anything about their cars they are way to conservative and only give you a warranty because they know you'll never need it, even if you modify your car. Whats the potential buyer going to think? Do you really think that average joe is going to believe your judgement over that of one of the most respected engineering companies in the world? Yeah, of course he is.

Try taking your modified car back to the dealer on trade in too. In the UK, they won't touch a non approved modified car. Makes selling very hard.

Its all about risk. Some people want zero risk, and are willing to pay. Some people judge the risk as acceptable, and go a different direction. Other tuning companies might well produce faster, more powerful conversions. I know a Works car will always be easily resold. Can't say that for other conversions. Hartge is well respected, but AMD, DIgitec, BBR, GGR? Do they hold the same respect? Certainly their conversions are fast, and are probably just as reliable, but what about resale? Would the average Joe 'desire' the heritage of an AMD converted Mini? He'd actually probably say AMD? Who the hell are they?



Happy New Year!

[JBOO]

It's about time another JCW vs the World debate started, I was getting a little bored.

[JBOO]

[quote] I think what we are going to find in the future is that when these cars get into high mileages that the BBR's Hartges and Digitecs of this world are going to be dieing premature deaths while the JCW's will probably survive to 150,000 miles before major work is required.QUOTE]

That's a bold claim when most of the tuners do very similar modifications.


[quote] I know a Works car will always be easily resold. Can't say that for other conversions. QUOTE]

Why would a JCW hold a "greater" resale, when your average joe can take his S down to the dealer and buy himself the kit. Why would the average joe even "desire" the JCW, when the average joe might not know who the heck John Cooper is?

QUOTE] A dealership won’t touch a BBR cause it can’t sell it with a warranty. QUOTE]

I've seen modded mini's at dealerships here, not to mention, why couldn't you remove all your bits and sell them separately? Is a dealer going to know you had a different exhaust, ecu software or pulley installed?

Opinions!! Man, everyone's got one.

[greatgro]

[quote=JBOO][quote] I think what we are going to find in the future is that when these cars get into high mileages that the BBR's Hartges and Digitecs of this world are going to be dieing premature deaths while the JCW's will probably survive to 150,000 miles before major work is required. QUOTE]
That's just silly since the JCW has NOTHING for reliability than the warranty and that runs out at 50k miles!

[quote] I know a Works car will always be easily resold. Can't say that for other conversions. QUOTE]
I strongly disagree. Why would I want YOUR JCW MINI at say 80k miles when I can buy my own used S and have the JCW kit installed - then they'll warranty my new kit for a period of time - even beyond the 50k miles! Plus the supercharger, head, exhaust will be brand smacking new!

[greatgro]

Good points, Tony*t3. Didn't know about England warranty laws either. It just rubs mew the wrong way when some big power (in this case BMW) knows they have you over a rock and a hard place (warranty) and they totally milk every penny out of you for it. It's wrong and unethical IMO. In fact, I'd love to own the most expensive, powerful and exclusive Cooper made by MINI. It's only b/c of the way MINI went about making and pricing the JCW that I'm against. And sorry if my above post are taken the wrong way. I don't think anything less of someone who bought or wants to buy the JCW. The reasons I gave work for me and everyone has to decide what's right for them. I'm not trying to put anyone down or sway anyone's opinion either. I just wrote how I felt personally.

[Tonyt3]

Quote: Originally Posted by greatgro

Good points, Tony*t3. Didn't know about England warranty laws either. It just rubs mew the wrong way when some big power (in this case BMW) knows they have you over a rock and a hard place (warranty) and they totally milk every penny out of you for it. It's wrong and unethical IMO. In fact, I'd love to own the most expensive, powerful and exclusive Cooper made by MINI. It's only b/c of the way MINI went about making and pricing the JCW that I'm against. And sorry if my above post are taken the wrong way. I don't think anything less of someone who bought or wants to buy the JCW. The reasons I gave work for me and everyone has to decide what's right for them. I'm not trying to put anyone down or sway anyone's opinion either. I just wrote how I felt personally.

much of what you said in your first post I would strongly agree with if my personal circumstances were similar to yours. For instance, my MCS is the car that I use all the time, and require for work. If for nstance I had a company car (very popular here in the UK) and the MCS was my 'weekend plaything' then I think that I would have put pure performance over and ahead of warranty and resale etc. I would personally much prefer to have a 240 bhp conversion over the JCW, as yes, I would want the fastest car for the money etc, but the other factors in my life meant that I couldn't do this. If for instance my personal financial circumstance changed for the worse suddenly, I would need to be able to free up the equity in my car as quickly and simply as possible, getting the best return. I know for instance that I could probably sell my car to a dealer immediatly without worry.

Its mostly down to personal circumstances. If I had no worries finanically then I wouldn't have a Works, I'd probably go for a BBR (they seem to be out ahead in the tuning stakes in the UK currently).

The only other thing that concerns me is the sudden spate of people saying that the Worka conversion isn't actually any good. I beg to differ, it is good. It always wins the motoring journalists votes, and has been regarded as one of the top ten performance cars available recently by numerous quality motoring magazines. So it does irk me that some of the users here are increasingly putting over the opinion that Works owners are 'mugs' that deserve to be ripped off, and are being ripped of by BMW. It ain't cheap by anyones standards. It also isn't the best. But its still bloody good!