[milesfides]

Hello,

I had a couple questions about stick shifting and my MINI Cooper '05:

1) When I'm on an incline at a signal light, with my handbrake up to keep me from rolling back, then I let go of the foot brake, I hear an unpleasant groaning/creaking sound. Should I be worried about this? I assume it's the weight of the vehicle transferring from the foot brake to the handbrake, but is that sound normal?

2) When I'm in traffic, I'm constantly letting out/pushing in the clutch. Isn't this bad for the clutch, wearing it out? Also at times, is getting in and out of first gear considered "riding the clutch," which is universally condemned? I don't know how else to get in and out of first gear in traffic, smoothly, without riding the clutch.

[BigGerald]

Quote: Originally Posted by milesfides

1) When I'm on an incline at a signal light, with my handbrake up to keep me from rolling back, then I let go of the foot brake, I hear an unpleasant groaning/creaking sound. Should I be worried about this?

My Mini groans, whines, creaks, and rattles all the time and I don't worry about it. But, seriously, if you don't like the noise, stop applying the handbrake when you're simply stopped at red lights. Do it like everyone else and use those foot pedal things.

Quote: Originally Posted by milesfides

2) When I'm in traffic, I'm constantly letting out/pushing in the clutch. Isn't this bad for the clutch, wearing it out? Also at times, is getting in and out of first gear considered "riding the clutch," which is universally condemned? I don't know how else to get in and out of first gear in traffic, smoothly, without riding the clutch.

I guess that is wearing out the clutch, but what are you going to do? You're in traffic! Just make an effort not to ride the thing, even if your starts are a bit herky jerky!

[milesfides]

Quote: Originally Posted by BigGerald

My Mini groans, whines, creaks, and rattles all the time and I don't worry about it. But, seriously, if you don't like the noise, stop applying the handbrake when you're simply stopped at red lights. Do it like everyone else and use those foot pedal things.

Many users on these forums recommend using the handbrake on inclines at stop signal lights to reduce wear on the clutch. So it's inevitable that one has to remove one's foot from the foot brake pedal and transfer the weight of the vehicle to the handbrake at one point, to complete this maneuver. So are the loud creaking/groaning sounds nothing to worry about? The car sounds like it's under tremendous pressure.

[zyo]

Make sure the handbrake is on fully,sometimes on my sloping driveway i get the creaking groaning noise if its not on fully and i've experienced this with most cars.

[deggles]

IMHO using the handbrake when stopped on an incline is definitely a Good Idea Holding the car on the clutch for more than a few seconds is going to cause wear, and if you just use the footbrake then surely you're going to roll backwards when you transfer your right foot to the gas to set off? Remember there's no 'creep' to counteract the roll as there is with an auto. BTW, you'd fail your driving test in the UK for not using the handbrake in this situation!

On a new car the handbrake should easily hold the weight of the car on the first or second notch. You should be able to 'feel' the weight transfer when releasing the footbrake, but if it's groaning excessively then it's probably not fully applied. Might be worth getting it checked to make sure the cable is not stretched.

[Rakey]

Quote: Originally Posted by milesfides

Many users on these forums recommend using the handbrake on inclines at stop signal lights to reduce wear on the clutch. So it's inevitable that one has to remove one's foot from the foot brake pedal and transfer the weight of the vehicle to the handbrake at one point, to complete this maneuver. So are the loud creaking/groaning sounds nothing to worry about? The car sounds like it's under tremendous pressure.

the groaning is probably from the drivers behind you, people do get jealous of MINI's

seriously its the brake pads, thats all, nothing to worry about

[SteveM3]

The noise is normal and nothing to worry about. Your driving style is fine, the way you
use the clutch is normal and thats what is is designed for. Riding the clutch refers to lazy
people who leave their foot resting against the clutch pedal. Your car is o.k., you are fine
so now get out of that city and give it some wellie .

[Eelke]

WRT using the clutch in traffic, as has been pointed out already, you will not be able to escape some use. However, you can get into a driving style that requires very little clutch operation. Many people tend to set off too quickly when traffic starts moving again, causing them to go too fast and having to come to a complete stop again meters further, which involves depressing the clutch again. Also, many don't realise it is perfectly OK to not apply any throttle and just let the car roll "by itself".

To get into this habit, apply very little throttle when setting off, release the clutch as quickly as possible while still retaining a smooth start, and then control the speed using the throttle paddle, anticipating the movements of traffic ahead. Release the throttle a bit when traffic slows down, apply some when you need to go a bit faster to keep up. Do all this in first gear or, if traffic starts to move a little quicker, second. (Should you get to third, traffic is probably moving at "normal" pace again). Releasing throttle completely (do this smoothly, as in low gear sudden changes in power will jerk the car around) will just get the car rolling on what is essentially idle speed. No need to touch the clutch at any time while doing this. Should you need to go even slower than this idle speed, depress the clutch, and if required apply the break. Then, start all over again

Also, as noted before, when you are going to stand still from longer periods of time, put the box in neutral and release the clutch, as it will wear your clutch otherwise. Putting the car on hand brake is also a nice idea, even on flats, because otherwise you will be blinding the person behind you with your brake lights

[vagt6]

My '05 MCS hand brake sometimes groans when applied lightly, I think the sound is normal and OK. It's the rear brakes slipping slightly. Other cars do it, too.

Using the hand brake while stationary on an incline to start out is not a good idea. First, when you don't use the brake pedal when stopped, your brake lights don't work. Brake lights signal other drivers that you're sitting still. It's a significant safety issue. The brake light makes your (very small, relatively hard to see) MINI more visible, especially in night conditions. Sitting in traffic without brake lights is potentially dangerous. If you're applying your brakes WITH the handbrake on, very good. Seems rather cumbersome, though . . .

Second, if there's a handbrake failure (not likely, I admit), your MINI will roll backward into whatever is waiting behind it. Plus, it takes extra time to disengage the handbrake in traffic and then start out. Around here, pausing for one second longer at a light will cause loud horn blowing! Also, the foot brakes apply all four brakes, the hand brake only the two rear brakes. And, the clutch suffers no more wear without using the handbrake on hills, at least not in my MINI.

Learn how to start out on inclines without the hand brake. That's what the drivetrain is made for. If a driver doesn't have enough confidence to start out from an incline without the hand brake, he/she should practice (not in traffic!) until the skill is acquired.

For example, I use a heel-toe method on inclines, with the heel of my right foot on the brake and the toe on the accelerator. Easy, safe and has minimal wear on the clutch when performed well.

Get out there and practice, it's easy to do!

[Eelke]

The point about brake lights is a fair one when you are the last in a line. If you're not, I don't see the point (and in those circumstance I stick to the point that not applying the foot brake is more comfortable for the person behind you). I don't see why the hand brake failing is any more likely than the foot brake failing.

Also, I don't see how being on the hand brake slows you down when driving off. Over here in the Netherlands, taking off on an incline using the hand break is a requirement for the driver's exam. Especially a driver skilled at it will not take more time doing it that way than in normal conditions without having the brake applied (hand or foot). Insisting on using the foot brake sounds fiddly, to be honest (assuming the car has a manual gearbox).

[Loxycoon]

The fascinating things you learn! I've never in my life used the handbrake in my stick unless it's been parked. I've never even really thought about using it in the manner in which everyone here has been describing. Shame on my dad for not teaching me better!

I can say that in my last two cars (both bought brand new and I was the only owner/driver) I've never had to replace the clutch. I had a 1995 Jeep Wrangler with over 100,000 miles when traded in and a 1999 Mitsubishi Mirage that had nearly 90,000 miles on it. And I do have a rather bad habit of riding the clutch when impatiently stuck at a light, especially if I'm on a slight slope. Something soothing about rocking back and forth. Or maybe it's the shocked look on the soccer mom's faces when they pull their huge SUVs right up on my bumper and I drift back and forth. Here in the US it seems like driving a stick is a lost art. None of my friends know how!

Speaking of brake lights, I also have a bad habit of letting my foot off the brake at a stop light (leaving no feet on the pedals), especially when I am on a flat surface. I've recently been yelled at for doing this by my boyfriend that was following me in his car one day. I don't think there is an issue with your brake lights blinding anyone (going back to the fact that I think at least 90% of cars on the road in the US are automatics and they HAVE to have their brakes on at a stop). I agree it is a safety issue, especially in a MINI that some people may not realize you are at a stop.

I've also been fascinated by this heel-toe shifting method I read about on the MINIUSA site. I'll have to have someone demonstrate it for me one day!

[milesfides]

Re: Hand-braking on inclines at stop signals -

thanks for the great advice everybody. it does seem like the best thing for the car/clutch is using the handbrake - i'll continue to do so, as it seems like the only method that is legitimately supported by the appropriate agencies.

it also appears that the groaning sound is common and nothing to worry about.

i've also decided to tap on the brakes to warn cars not too pull up to close (slightly rolling back to warn them sounds like a bad idea)

One of the above posts mentioned "heel-and-toe" method, first, I thought the toe was kept on the brake and the heel "blipped" the gas, not the other way around, second, I think it's more of keeping the ball of your foot on the brake while using the outside edge of your foot to blip the gas, lastly I thought heel-and-toe was used while downshifting, especially before hitting curves, rather that starting from an incline.

Re: Clutch wear in traffic

I don't think I was clear enough in my original post. What I meant was, in slow stop and go traffic, traffic doesn't seem to move fast enough for me to even fully engage in first gear. I'm constantly pushing the clutch back down and letting it back up, but not letting go completely into first gear. In fact, I'm quite frequently holding the clutch at a midway point, where the car moves forward slowly, which is appropriate to the very slow speed of traffic.

This is what I meant when I feared I was "riding" the clutch, I'm moving forward not completely in gear, but partially engaged in first gear (I think). I understand the inevitable clutch wear of the pedal being pressed up and down, but I'm concerned about the clutch being held too long partially engaged. I'm not sure if this is called "riding" the clutch, or some other term.

[SteveM3]

Quote: Originally Posted by milesfides

[b]This is what I meant when I feared I was "riding" the clutch, I'm moving forward not completely in gear, but partially engaged in first gear (I think). I understand the inevitable clutch wear of the pedal being pressed up and down, but I'm concerned about the clutch being held too long partially engaged. I'm not sure if this is called "riding" the clutch, or some other term.

This is fine, manufacturers expect this sort of use so the clutch is designed for it.

[BigGerald]

Quote: Originally Posted by Loxycoon

I've never in my life used the handbrake in my stick unless it's been parked.

I've never used the handbrake method myself either. I just find it kind of silly. And like you Loxycoon, I've driven manuals my entire life, up to, and past 100k, per car or truck, and never had to replace a clutch. The circumstances we're talking about here just don't happen that much. How often do you get stopped on drastic inclines? It may depend on where you live, but it happens to me maybe once a week... and when it does I just clutch and shift normally, except that i give her more gas in first gear to climb the hill.

I wouldn't worry about the traffic clutching either... Riding the clutch a little in these situations is about all you can do to prevent yourself from getting whiplash from completely engaging in first, breaking, and engaging again.

I think working on smooth shifting in everyday driving (1st to 2nd to 3rd, etc) is much more vital to longevity of the clutch. Good luck and long live your clutch!!

By the way, you'll know if you're burning up your clutch... you'll smell it!

[MINI_Mol]

You learn something new every day.
I have driven a stick on hills my whole life (I am now 40). I have never once heard of using the hand brake to start off on inclines.
Our current driveway is a fairly steep incline and covered in gravel. I have to park in from of our old Jeep truck, so the first few times I tried to get out of the driveway, I showered gravel everywhere in an attempt to get moving forward and not roll back and crash into the truck. We had to think of something to keep the gravel in place and my husband ingeniously invented a system where he "nailed" (with 10 inch long landscape nails) down a metal "grate" (the stuff they put on the wall before they plaster it) onto the driveway. Now I can get out without throwing gravel everywhere. I am pretty good at not rolling back when shifting from clutch/brake to gas, but I am very intrigued by this handbrake method. Can someone write out detailed instructions for me so I can learn how this is done properly? I would appreciate it. oh, and if anyone wants to see a photo on my special "parking pad", just let me know.

[BMW.MINI.RR]

I always thought that using the handbrake on an incline was for beginners? Or for really, really, really steep inclines...

[Eelke]

OK, here's another long post on what is essentially a pretty silly topic

The way to get to learn the handbrake thing:
(Find a reasonably steep incline. Not too steep to begin with, just one that you'd normally have "trouble" driving away from stand still without letting the car roll back. And one without too much traffic would be nice too).
1 Car is on the handbrake.
2 Let the clutch come up slowly until you feel the car wants to start moving (this is the point where the engine has taken over from the hand brake to stop the car from rolling back).
3 Drop the handbrake.
4 Drive off as you would normally.

When you get the hang of it, this will all turn into a single action, basically. 2 might sound like it would induce wear on the clutch, but obviously you don't do this, then call for a pizza and wait for that to arrive before proceeding to 3; pretty soon you'll learn to anticipate when the car wants to take off and 2, 3 and 4 will blend together completely and there'd be no more wear than on a normale drive off. Possibly even less wear than you'd get when using just your feet.

The rule of thumb for when to use it: if you're not quick enough off the brake and onto the throttle with your right foot to stop the car from rolling back only veeerrry slightly, use this method instead. Personally, if I'm just cruising along, I'm not going to worry about moving my right foot from the brake to the throttle at lightning speed just because that'd mean I'm a Skilled Driver (tm). Not sure what that means for the "critical percentage" for an incline to become hand brake material for me personally. Probably somewhere around 5%.

In the Netherlands, you'll fail your driving test if you let the car roll back on an incline (of course this would translate to "let it roll back significantly" in practice, i.e. more than a few centimeters)*. It's left up to your own judgement as to what method you use. Personally, I'd say a Skilled Driver can be recognised by how swiftly and with how little rollback they take of from an incline, regardless of the method they use for it

*: Do note that all driving tests are conducted in manual gearbox cars over here; you can do lessons and an exam in a car with an auto box, but that would get you a remark on your license, meaning you are not allowed to drive a car with a manual gearbox.

[MINI_Mol]

Thanks Eelke, your instructions are very helpful.

From your description, I guess I am a "skilled driver" and perhaps it may not be worth teaching this old dog (40) new tricks. Even on the steepest (paved) incline I do not tend to roll back much, if at all. Mostly it's just been learning my new MINI (after driving nothing but our truck for 14 years), our inclined gravel driveway, and the fear of possibly making a slip and possibly rolling back into our truck that made me think somehow I have been doing it all wrong all these years, after reading for the first time yesterday about using the handbrake to steep on an incline. I will try this handbrake method today just to see how it compares. (Note: the way I never "sprayed" gravel getting out of the driveway in the truck was that I always switched it into 4 wheel drive before pulling into the driveway- worked like a charm)

[vagt6]

Hmmm, I wonder if Schumacher uses the handbrake on hills . . .???

[everythingsablur]

Quote: Originally Posted by Eelke

OK, here's another long post on what is essentially a pretty silly topic

Silly for you maybe, but I've only been driving stick for like 2 weeks in my MCS and plan my entire commute around NOT having to stop on the incline side of any moderately sized hills.

I'm just happy I've gone two days without stalling her from a stop! Practice makes perfect... I'll try to use your handbrake technique this weekend. Must... overcome... fear!