MINI2

silverC2 · Mar 14th, 2006, 08:26 PM

Can anyone tell me the differences on the post 2005 mcs (ignoring the gearing) that make it feel so responsive. Having had a 2005 mcs loan car for a few days, if you rev it in neutral the revs fly around the clock and it picks up consistently thro' the rev range, always eager. My 2003 JCW whilst very quick ( and quicker and smoother than the mcs 2005) on full throttle, feels like it is holding back constantly on part throttle, almost like a flat spot....it is annoying the hell out of me..

If you rev my jcw in neutral it is much slower to pick up unless you really press the throttle.

Is it down to different mapping, a different flywheel ?? Would a 210 upgrade with different injectors, airbox and mapping get rid of this flatness on part throttle. Is there any other cure. I know there is a gearing difference, but it can't be solely down to this.

I can't drive everywhere on full throttle !!

Any comments this, or experience of the 210 upgrade would be very really helpful.

beken · Mar 14th, 2006, 08:47 PM

My guess is different engine mapping software. It appears there's a lot more fuel dumped into the intake at lower revs for the new cars. A lot of people complained about the lack of low end grunt and it seems BMW has provided a number of software upgrades since 2003 to address customer complaints.

Have you checked with your dealer/service to see if there has been any software upgrades?

Also, The JCW kit from 2003 does not have the cold air intake or bigger fuel injectors. They were included in 2005. You might inquire about that too.

BlueMax · Mar 17th, 2006, 10:24 AM

Just like to add on to this question. Can anybody confirm if a 04 MCS (or earlier) with the JCW 210 conversion (talking engine wise only) is exactly the same as a 05 or 06 MCS with the JCW 210 conversion. We all know the gearbox is different but whilst revving the engine in neutral, there should be no difference, except as has been mentioned (but not confirmed) if changes were made to eg the flywheel? There are many people on Mini 2 that should have an exact answer to this straight forward question.

Vitesse · Mar 17th, 2006, 02:25 PM

I had a 2003 JCW 2003 and now have a 2005. If I remember rightly the exhaust diameter changed slightly by a quarter of an inch I think, so I should imagine the manifold changed as well. I'm no expert but I should imagine this would allow the engine to breath better and maybe would explain the faster/quicker rev'ing?

silverC2 · Mar 17th, 2006, 04:59 PM

I have booked the car in with John Cooper garages in Sussex, for next Thursday morning for the 210 upgrade. Hopefully this will answer the question. They will replace the airbox, injectors and update the ecu with latest download.

Whilst I am there I will try and get as much info as possible on any differences in the model years.

I am hoping that the part throttle performance will be transformed.

I'll post the results afterwards.

matt21 · Mar 18th, 2006, 05:53 PM

i was told that the 05 MCS's run very similar to the pre facelift 200 BHP Works

Squire · Mar 20th, 2006, 03:24 PM

Without wanting to start a new thread all on its own to ask a similar question so....

..Does anyone know if there are differences like you mention here between an 04 MCS and an 05 MCS??

The reason i as kis cause i am in the process of finding a MCS to replace my cooper and i really wanna make sure i get the right one, if there is some engine differences between the two then i might spend a little bit more to get the 05 version! whereas if the changes had already been made by then, then i have a nice 04 lined up to purchase

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

matt21 · Mar 20th, 2006, 05:16 PM

depends if the 04 is pre or post facelift. imo post facelifts seem a lot better, quicker and better gear ratios. driven a few pre facelifts and my post facelift is simply awesome

as to post faclift 04s and 05s i think the big difference is the LSD which helps handling etc but the other changes are cosmetic.

Squire · Mar 20th, 2006, 05:22 PM

aahh cheers mate, so how do i know if its a pre or post facelift model...what are the main differences i should look for?

are there any pictures on here to tell between the two?

matt21 · Mar 20th, 2006, 05:34 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Squire

aahh cheers mate, so how do i know if its a pre or post facelift model...what are the main differences i should look for?

are there any pictures on here to tell between the two?

post facelift came out July 04. power up to 170bhp, revised gearing, sounded better

. quite a few small exterior differences. the rear fog lights swapped positions with reversing light, front lights changed (xenons are rocket style), slightly different bumpers. also inside there is better storage space, funky orange LED's, 3 piece dash instead of 5.

im sure there are quite a few pics around of post facelift ones in galleries etc. however these would then command a higher resale price than pre facelift due to improvements.

by doing a search im sure u wud find exact changes etc

Squire · Mar 20th, 2006, 08:08 PM

Many thanks for that matt, was extremly helpful indeed ol bean!!

i will make sure i get one thats post facelift then, may as well get the better one for a little bit extra eh

i shall ask the dealer if the one i am looking at purchasing is a post faceflift mode or not 2mora

thanks once again mate, appreciate it as i really wanna make sure i find the right mini if i am gonna blow some dosh on one eh

BlueMax · Mar 27th, 2006, 02:33 PM

SilverC2 - any news on what you could find out from JC Garages and your views on the 210HP upgrade?

THE ITCH · Mar 27th, 2006, 03:17 PM

There has also been a change on the stock crank pulley. I forget how much lighter it is now than before but was at least a couple of pounds. That would definitely make it rev quicker.

silverC2 · Mar 28th, 2006, 01:51 PM

Had the 200 to 210 jcw upgrade last Thursday. Verdict: More noise at 4500rpm, pulls a little bit harder on full throttle (although this could just be an impression due to the extra whine). Throttle response at low revs and part throttle is smoother and doesnt feel like there are any flat spots.....BUT throttle feel still way off the latest MCS 2005 model.

Is it worth it ? Possibly !

I might have to wait until it is out of warranty and try one of GTT's upgrades for JCW cars. Maybe that will do it !

JCW garages service was very polite and swift, but they didn't really seem to be able to give me any idea as to why the two models 'feel' so different, just saying something about having the latest maps.....I gave up 'probing' in the end and just drank their coffee !!

MInd you the drive there and back was good fun.

Vitesse · Mar 28th, 2006, 02:57 PM

I have had a 200, then 210 and now a 2005 210 always had work carried out by JCG. At the time of owning a 2003 210, I didn't think a 2005 would be much difference. But having lived with both, there is a quite substantial difference, as you stated power delivery is much smoother, just feels quicker.

The one thing I noticed more than anything is the newer car feels a lot better at putting the power on the road, probably due to the LSD. The older car used to skip around a lot more and at times could be a little scary when really going for it. The 2005 just feels much more confident when being pushed.

Mar 14th, 2006, 08:26 PM	#1
silverC2 MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chipperfield, Herts Local Time: 02:30 PM Posts: 15 Offline	2003 mcs JCW vs 2005 mcs Can anyone tell me the differences on the post 2005 mcs (ignoring the gearing) that make it feel so responsive. Having had a 2005 mcs loan car for a few days, if you rev it in neutral the revs fly around the clock and it picks up consistently thro' the rev range, always eager. My 2003 JCW whilst very quick ( and quicker and smoother than the mcs 2005) on full throttle, feels like it is holding back constantly on part throttle, almost like a flat spot....it is annoying the hell out of me.. If you rev my jcw in neutral it is much slower to pick up unless you really press the throttle. Is it down to different mapping, a different flywheel ?? Would a 210 upgrade with different injectors, airbox and mapping get rid of this flatness on part throttle. Is there any other cure. I know there is a gearing difference, but it can't be solely down to this. I can't drive everywhere on full throttle !! Any comments this, or experience of the 210 upgrade would be very really helpful.

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Mar 14th, 2006, 08:47 PM	#2 (permalink)
beken 05 MCS BEP Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Delta, BC, Canada Local Time: 07:30 AM Posts: 1,186 Offline	My guess is different engine mapping software. It appears there's a lot more fuel dumped into the intake at lower revs for the new cars. A lot of people complained about the lack of low end grunt and it seems BMW has provided a number of software upgrades since 2003 to address customer complaints. Have you checked with your dealer/service to see if there has been any software upgrades? Also, The JCW kit from 2003 does not have the cold air intake or bigger fuel injectors. They were included in 2005. You might inquire about that too.

Mar 17th, 2006, 10:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
BlueMax BlueMax Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pretoria Local Time: 04:30 PM Posts: 154 Offline	Just like to add on to this question. Can anybody confirm if a 04 MCS (or earlier) with the JCW 210 conversion (talking engine wise only) is exactly the same as a 05 or 06 MCS with the JCW 210 conversion. We all know the gearbox is different but whilst revving the engine in neutral, there should be no difference, except as has been mentioned (but not confirmed) if changes were made to eg the flywheel? There are many people on Mini 2 that should have an exact answer to this straight forward question.

Mar 17th, 2006, 02:25 PM	#4 (permalink)
Vitesse MINI2 Senior Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Westerham Local Time: 03:30 PM Posts: 668 Offline	I had a 2003 JCW 2003 and now have a 2005. If I remember rightly the exhaust diameter changed slightly by a quarter of an inch I think, so I should imagine the manifold changed as well. I'm no expert but I should imagine this would allow the engine to breath better and maybe would explain the faster/quicker rev'ing?

Mar 17th, 2006, 04:59 PM	#5 (permalink)
silverC2 MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chipperfield, Herts Local Time: 02:30 PM Posts: 15 Offline	I have booked the car in with John Cooper garages in Sussex, for next Thursday morning for the 210 upgrade. Hopefully this will answer the question. They will replace the airbox, injectors and update the ecu with latest download. Whilst I am there I will try and get as much info as possible on any differences in the model years. I am hoping that the part throttle performance will be transformed. I'll post the results afterwards.

Mar 18th, 2006, 05:53 PM	#6 (permalink)
matt21 Now with S power! My Classifieds Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Rugby/Loughborough Local Time: 03:30 PM Posts: 24,224 Offline	i was told that the 05 MCS's run very similar to the pre facelift 200 BHP Works

Mar 20th, 2006, 03:24 PM	#7 (permalink)
Squire oohh that was a good one Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: gloucestershire Local Time: 02:30 PM Posts: 474 Offline	Without wanting to start a new thread all on its own to ask a similar question so.... ..Does anyone know if there are differences like you mention here between an 04 MCS and an 05 MCS?? The reason i as kis cause i am in the process of finding a MCS to replace my cooper and i really wanna make sure i get the right one, if there is some engine differences between the two then i might spend a little bit more to get the 05 version! whereas if the changes had already been made by then, then i have a nice 04 lined up to purchase Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Mar 20th, 2006, 05:16 PM	#8 (permalink)
matt21 Now with S power! My Classifieds Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Rugby/Loughborough Local Time: 03:30 PM Posts: 24,224 Offline	depends if the 04 is pre or post facelift. imo post facelifts seem a lot better, quicker and better gear ratios. driven a few pre facelifts and my post facelift is simply awesome as to post faclift 04s and 05s i think the big difference is the LSD which helps handling etc but the other changes are cosmetic.

Mar 20th, 2006, 05:22 PM	#9 (permalink)
Squire oohh that was a good one Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: gloucestershire Local Time: 02:30 PM Posts: 474 Offline	aahh cheers mate, so how do i know if its a pre or post facelift model...what are the main differences i should look for? are there any pictures on here to tell between the two?

Mar 20th, 2006, 05:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
matt21 Now with S power! My Classifieds Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Rugby/Loughborough Local Time: 03:30 PM Posts: 24,224 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Squire aahh cheers mate, so how do i know if its a pre or post facelift model...what are the main differences i should look for? are there any pictures on here to tell between the two? post facelift came out July 04. power up to 170bhp, revised gearing, sounded better . quite a few small exterior differences. the rear fog lights swapped positions with reversing light, front lights changed (xenons are rocket style), slightly different bumpers. also inside there is better storage space, funky orange LED's, 3 piece dash instead of 5. im sure there are quite a few pics around of post facelift ones in galleries etc. however these would then command a higher resale price than pre facelift due to improvements. by doing a search im sure u wud find exact changes etc

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Mar 20th, 2006, 08:08 PM	#11 (permalink)
Squire oohh that was a good one Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: gloucestershire Local Time: 02:30 PM Posts: 474 Offline	Many thanks for that matt, was extremly helpful indeed ol bean!! i will make sure i get one thats post facelift then, may as well get the better one for a little bit extra eh i shall ask the dealer if the one i am looking at purchasing is a post faceflift mode or not 2mora thanks once again mate, appreciate it as i really wanna make sure i find the right mini if i am gonna blow some dosh on one eh

Mar 27th, 2006, 02:33 PM	#12 (permalink)
BlueMax BlueMax Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pretoria Local Time: 04:30 PM Posts: 154 Offline	SilverC2 - any news on what you could find out from JC Garages and your views on the 210HP upgrade?

Mar 27th, 2006, 03:17 PM	#13 (permalink)
THE ITCH MINI2 Regular Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Pulaski, NY Local Time: 10:30 AM Posts: 126 Offline	There has also been a change on the stock crank pulley. I forget how much lighter it is now than before but was at least a couple of pounds. That would definitely make it rev quicker.

Mar 28th, 2006, 01:51 PM	#14 (permalink)
silverC2 MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chipperfield, Herts Local Time: 02:30 PM Posts: 15 Offline	Had the 200 to 210 jcw upgrade last Thursday. Verdict: More noise at 4500rpm, pulls a little bit harder on full throttle (although this could just be an impression due to the extra whine). Throttle response at low revs and part throttle is smoother and doesnt feel like there are any flat spots.....BUT throttle feel still way off the latest MCS 2005 model. Is it worth it ? Possibly ! I might have to wait until it is out of warranty and try one of GTT's upgrades for JCW cars. Maybe that will do it ! JCW garages service was very polite and swift, but they didn't really seem to be able to give me any idea as to why the two models 'feel' so different, just saying something about having the latest maps.....I gave up 'probing' in the end and just drank their coffee !! MInd you the drive there and back was good fun.

Mar 28th, 2006, 02:57 PM	#15 (permalink)
Vitesse MINI2 Senior Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Westerham Local Time: 03:30 PM Posts: 668 Offline	I have had a 200, then 210 and now a 2005 210 always had work carried out by JCG. At the time of owning a 2003 210, I didn't think a 2005 would be much difference. But having lived with both, there is a quite substantial difference, as you stated power delivery is much smoother, just feels quicker. The one thing I noticed more than anything is the newer car feels a lot better at putting the power on the road, probably due to the LSD. The older car used to skip around a lot more and at times could be a little scary when really going for it. The 2005 just feels much more confident when being pushed.