[Juicysteak]

Hi all,

Im new here so please be kind.
I currently drive a polo but want the mini s real bad!
I have heard that there is going to be a turbo charged mini coming out, when will that be?
i take it in a few yrs time? i dont know whether to wait or not!
what will be the main differences be?

The thing is i cant decide between new golf gti, cooper s or cooper works
the works and gti will most definitely be 2nd hand, including all extras, the cooper s is co,ing out at at least 20K.
im not sure whether to wait or not

[Richard Crofts]

The rumor of turbo'd MINI is due to the engine manufacturer change. The MINI uses a 1.6 Crysler engine at the mo and is supercharged but BMW have looked at or already have changed to a deal with the Pugeot/Renault engine company. They will supply the new generation engines apparently. If this is the case there is a serious possibility of the engine being a turbo not s'charged.

There are a number of pros or possibly cons to this change, many of these depend on the individuals taste.

1. Supercharger gives even power delivery through all the rev range because it doesn't need to spool up like a turbo (turbos use exhaust gasses to spin the turbine and therefore must reach a cirtain revs/gas pressure before the turbo is spinning fast enough to increase the power.) This means you get turbo lag and then a punch of power.

2. Turbos give a fast feeling (this is due to the lag time before the power kicks in all of a sudden. S'charged doesn't have this as it delivers power smoothly)

3. To generate the same level of power output you need a bigger turbo which, to my limited understanding, means that there are fuel economy issues. (I think this might be caused because the turbo is less efficient than a supercharger???)

4. Everybody and his son has a turbo version of thier cars available whereas a supercharger is very unusual as a power mod from factory or even in the aftermarket.

5. The other problem may be reliability, unfortunatly I don't know enough about s's and t's but I think that the bigger the turbo the more risk of blowing the engine. This may mean the engine capacity rises to around 2 litres so they can fit a realible turbo? But then agin some of the Japanese car companies fit really big turbos and still have good realiability so this may not be an issue.

Just a few thoughts for you.

There are turbo conversions available aftermarket for the normal cooper, which is the option I am looking at. Probably doesn't help much as I don't know enough about s's and t's but I do know about the cars.

The Golf GTi is a good solid quick car but looks just like any other golf, and has a boring interior and a pretty bland exterior. The golf looks like every other german made or even japanese car inside, bland bland bland with lots of blacks and grey plastic/vinal and other materiels. The mini at least has some looks and a style all of its own.

I would get a standard S as its not killer to insure and is plenty fast, the option for a works pack is available if you find it too slow, as this is not fitted at factory anyway but at JCW garages. Waiting for the new engines with possible turbos would be silly as I understand we are looking at 2007ish for these and the new body doesn't look that smart in my opinion, and if you like the current one you might not like the new style. Plus the changes already made like doing away with the big speedo on the steering cloumn are mistaes that have already been made so there may be others that BMW will make in future.

[Juicysteak]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply!
So it is not concrete yet that it wioll be a turbocharger?
and what about the peugoet engine, is that just speculative?
can someone post a pic of what it will look like as i cant find any pics!

not the golf i am looking at, im into putting some nice alloys on and slamming it!
same with the mini, i cant stand having the same looking car as everyone else altough im not into any of these bodykits etc except eh aero kit which i think is quite nice!

[supercharged]

I would like the just clear a few things up.

1: The engine will be / has been developed by BMW with assistance (mainly regarding production) from PSA Peugeot Citroen.

2: Even though nothing is for sure yet, everything points in the direction of the new engine being turbo charged.

3: While quite a few changes have been made to the interior, the big center speedo setup hasnt been changed.

4: Most of the information provided about the new MINI isnt official, and isn't final. You may find pictures of "New MINI" on the net, but they are all just photoshop jobs and there arent any concrete or official pictures yet. All other pictures are just pictures of the testing mules and do not represent the final look.

Just my opinion on a few things:

I personally don't think BMW will release anything less than a masterpiece. They are normally very good with that, and know what's important in the car in order to keep it true to what makes it what it is. That's one of the reasons the current MINI is such a success.

The new engine will have minimal turbo lag because of things like a twin scroll turbo, which almost eliminates turbo lag. The new engine is also going to be highly advanced. It will have basically everything that the best engines of today have and more.

I wish they would have stuck with the supercharger, but like I said, I still think the new MINI is going to be an amazing car.

It depends on you what's more important, but the way I see it, the current MINI is going to be something special even long after the new MINI arrives. I personally decided to go for the current Cooper S. Maybe in the future you'll find me driving the next generation MINI, but I don't think I'll ever regret buying the current MCS. Out of all the choices you mentioned in your first post, I would go for the MCS. I also considered a Golf GTI when looking around, but the MINI has something special about it.

Hope this helps.
SuperCharged

[MINIAC]

Details on new engines ...

http://www.mini2.com/news/news273.html

[badboyzbadboyz]

Juicysteak, if you want a MINI real bad I would say go for it. The new engines wont be out for a few years yet and you can always upgrade to the new one when it comes out. However, I do very much agree with the opinion that the new turbo engine will be a peach. I really enjoy my supercharged engine but there is room for improvement. This talk of turbo lag will not be an issue. Anyone who has good experience with a MCS will know that the current supercharged engine suffers from a lack of power below about 2300rpm (which actually feels like turbo lag). Also, the throttle response IMO is probably the weakest link of the car. With the new engine I still expect to see the lack of power in the lower rev range (by nature of using a turbo) but I expect it will pull harder when revved and I am very much looking forward to a sharper throttle response. As it is the current MCS is a great car, which is serious fun to drive so if you do get one you definitely wont be disappointed - but when the new one does come out I suspect that will be even better

[Paul]

Take a read through the MINI2 news section and the future variants forum.

If you want to wait until next year then you could get the new shape, new look, new engined MINI, but if you like the MINI as it is, then there's no real point in waiting I guess!

[RallyMINI]

Sorry folks, but I feel a need to correct a couple things here, having a little OCD moment...

>2. Turbos give a fast feeling (this is due to the lag time before the power kicks in all of a >sudden. S'charged doesn't have this as it delivers power smoothly)

Twin Scroll Turbo's do not really suffer from this problem, they spool very quickly, and the duty cycle of the bypass valve can smooth out the power delivery.

>3. To generate the same level of power output you need a bigger turbo which, to my limited >understanding, means that there are fuel economy issues. (I think this might be caused >because the turbo is less efficient than a supercharger???)

This is very incorrect... A turbo of equivalent power increase will weigh less. Also, a turbocharger is inherently MORE efficient than a supercharger because it uses wasted energy (the hot expanding exhaust gas) to spin the turbine on the inlet side. A supercharger sucks power away from the engine by spinning the turbine using the belt drive. Additionally, if you bypass a turbocharger it doesn't suck any power from the engine, you cannot do this with a supercharger because it HAS to spin if the motor is spinning. Superchargers USED to be better because of their low-end response (which is good on the current engine due to its lack of variable valve timing). The new engine will have some form of VANOS so the low end response is taken care of.

>4. Everybody and his son has a turbo version of thier cars available whereas a supercharger >is very unusual as a power mod from factory or even in the aftermarket.

This is because turbos are more efficient and easier to impliment and cheaper, etc...

>5. The other problem may be reliability...

This is not an issue with modern turbos and turbocharged engines... All big rig diesels are turbocharged, and they can last millions of miles!

RMout

[Cooper S Ire]

buy the MCS
you wont be sorry
just think of the mods you can do even add a turbo
for a twincharged car
if you wait for the new model
you probably wont be able to add a supercharger to the new turbo engine

[Bilbo Baggins]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Crofts

Just a few thoughts for you.

There are turbo conversions available aftermarket for the normal cooper, which is the option I am looking at. Probably doesn't help much as I don't know enough about s's and t's but I do know about the cars.

.

I would offer a word of warning about adding a turbo to a MINI Cooper. The Cooper is not as robustly built as the MCS. The engine of the MCS has been augmanted with forged pistons, connecting rods and a crank. These were specifically added to withstand the added pressures introduced by the supercharger and the extra horsepower.

I feel that a turbocharged Cooper will not be as reliable in the long term, especially if the horsepower levels are pushed close to those in the MCS.

Just one hobbits opinion

[ElPolloDiablo]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins

I would offer a word of warning about adding a turbo to a MINI Cooper. The Cooper is not as robustly built as the MCS. The engine of the MCS has been augmanted with forged pistons, connecting rods and a crank. These were specifically added to withstand the added pressures introduced by the supercharger and the extra horsepower.

I feel that a turbocharged Cooper will not be as reliable in the long term, especially if the horsepower levels are pushed close to those in the MCS.

Just one hobbits opinion

The cooper also has a ~10.5:1 compression ratio in contrast to the much lower ~8.5 on the S. . .the 10.5 would make it much more prone to detonation unless uber high octane fuel, a thicker head gasket to lower compression or some sort of cooling like methanol injection were implemented. The stock fueling on the mini might not be up to the task either which would require bigger injectors, fuel pump and possibly a fuel pressure regulator. Not to mention tuning to readjust the fuel curves. Just all things to consider. . .

[headly21]

Quote: Originally Posted by Juicysteak

The thing is i cant decide between new golf gti, cooper s or cooper works
the works and gti will most definitely be 2nd hand, including all extras, the cooper s is co,ing out at at least 20K.
im not sure whether to wait or not

The difference in horsepower and torque between the Cooper S and the Works seems pretty significant, until you consider what the Works gets you in terms of acceleration times. The Works is only a few tenths of one second faster, maybe half a second at most, than the Cooper S. This could be significant if you're racing, but do you want to spend an extra six thousand American dollars for a half-second-quicker car? I like to autocross and the Cooper S is more than adequate.
As for Super Versus Turbo, the main difference is that a supercharger runs off a belt from a pulley, so it's constantly spinning, unlike a turbo that needs a certain rpm for exhaust gases to kick in the impeller. It also runs hotter. Supercharging gives boost through a wider rpm range and smooths out your torque curve, giving you more torque at lower rpm.

[badboyzbadboyz]

Quote: Originally Posted by headly21

The difference in horsepower and torque between the Cooper S and the Works seems pretty significant, until you consider what the Works gets you in terms of acceleration times. The Works is only a few tenths of one second faster, maybe half a second at most, than the Cooper S. This could be significant if you're racing, but do you want to spend an extra six thousand American dollars for a half-second-quicker car? I like to autocross and the Cooper S is more than adequate.
As for Super Versus Turbo, the main difference is that a supercharger runs off a belt from a pulley, so it's constantly spinning, unlike a turbo that needs a certain rpm for exhaust gases to kick in the impeller. It also runs hotter. Supercharging gives boost through a wider rpm range and smooths out your torque curve, giving you more torque at lower rpm.

But power and engine performance is delivered in many more ways that the 0-60 times you are referring to. As you said the torque difference between the S and the works is pretty significant so the very important in-gear acceleration times will be vastly improved. Many factors effect 0-60 times so they should be taken with a pinch of salt IMO.

[headly21]

Quote: Originally Posted by badboyzbadboyz

But power and engine performance is delivered in many more ways that the 0-60 times you are referring to. As you said the torque difference between the S and the works is pretty significant so the very important in-gear acceleration times will be vastly improved. Many factors effect 0-60 times so they should be taken with a pinch of salt IMO.

I agree. The question is, what's important to the buyer, in terms of performance? I tend to look at the whole package (handling, looks, uniqueness, power) and prefer a good balance. Some people only look at horsepower (analogous to people who only look at CPU speed in a computer). While the torque difference between the S and the Works package is significant, I personally found the price for that difference too high for my checkbook.
All that said, I'll still eventually do some performance mods (just can't help myself)