[rpenhale]

What options should I go for to create the ultimate drivers's Cooper?

[rich]

Wait for the Works S, Alpina or M (...for mythical) if you want the ultimate - Who knows which of these will take the title?

If your definition of ultimate is a little looser, get a Cooper S

If you are restricting yourself to the Cooper rather than an S, then the Works version would appear to be your best officially supported option

If you are talking base Cooper, then go for SS+ & 17" wheels, ASC+T (turn-offable if you are a "purist") and sports seats - All other options are for comfort or vanity only

[Red & White Cooper 2]

You would think that Sports Suspension Plus (SS+) and 17" wheels was the obvious answer, but several road tests of the Cooper S warn against going for the 17" wheels, so presumably this would also apply to the Cooper. And some prefer the standard Sports Suspension and 15" wheels to the 16" wheels and SS+, though the 16" tyres do offer (even) more grip.

I would agree with rich though that if you are after the ultimate driver's Cooper, you've got to seriously consider the Cooper S.

[rpenhale]

Hi all,

Thanks for the suggestions regarding the Cooper S, however being only 23 the insurance costs are a bit crippling after buying the car as well. I would just like some ideas regarding suspension setup, Wheel size, driving aids etc.

Thanks

[Red & White Cooper 2]

There have been a number of threads on wheel sizes and the pros and cons of Sports Suspension Plus. Opinion is divided as to which is best. Some can't tell the difference, some find SS+ better (even the ride) and some find the bouncyness of SS+ makes them slower on some roads. It may well depend on how smooth the roads in Devon are!

link to thread

In Devon, access to country roads should be easy - see if you can get a test drive in a Pepper Pack Cooper and a Chili Pack Cooper. Some dealers also have cars with 17" wheels.

[mike58]

My Cooper was specd. specificaly on standard susp+15" tyres.
The car sits lower (16s raise the car up to 12mm) it turns in quicker due to the skinny tyres, it is more accelerative due to the lower gearing and slides more when provoked producing grin inducing oversteer.
With only 115 BHP you are simply posing with 17s and if my expeience with Sp + susp is anything to go by the car grips understeers then grips again simulating cornering round a 50p piece.
If you are serious about trying various demo cars take a tyre press guage with you and check they are not overinflated as all loan and demo cars I have tried were 8-10 PSI over.
If you really want more grip on 15s there are a few road legal motorsport tyres avail that will simply astonish you with their grip levels over their limited lifespan.
Dr Mike

[jamiesim]

Mate,

Just picked up my replacement Cooper today and have had 17" wacked on this time with SS+ Granted I'm yet to really capable of giving a proper evaluation I have to say that the car is behaving beautifuly, the ride is preety much the same as my last cooper with SS+ and 16" alloys.

It must also be said that they look the muts nuts and give the car a meaner stance...

I'll report back in about 3000 miles and tell you what i really think... And lets put it this way 6 weeks ago I was told I was getting a replacement car so I took the opportunity to see how well the car can handle... we'll just leave it at that...

[blade929]

I will probably be told I am incorrect, but I always thought that the extra size of a 16in wheel is negated by the narrower tyre wall (tire for the yanks) ,that the wider tyre has ???. This means that the rolling circumferance would be similar.

- Takes step back, ready to be shot down in flames -

[Red & White Cooper 2]

Blade, you are partly correct, so no shooting down in flames! However, although the tyre wall is narrower, it is not quite narrow enough to compensate for the larger wheel size. Mike says they raise the car up 12mm. He may be right. All I know is that the Cooper S (with 16" wheels) has a ride height which is 8 mm higher than the Cooper (with 15" wheels).

[ScottyHP]

Hi there R&W I have said you know your stuff, so would it be fair to say (+ im under the impression this is correct) that by having for example 15" you will have less grip than someone with 17" or even 16" for that matter. As you have said before the difference between the 16"s and the 17"s is minor and not that noticable, and after driving both found this to be true, and ended up going for 17" for looks.

Quote:

With only 115 BHP you are simply posing with 17s and if my expeience with Sp + susp is anything to go by the car grips understeers then grips again simulating cornering round a 50p piece.

Help me out on this one R+W but regardless of BHP doesn't a wider tyre mean more grip? as for the quote above I would say if that if this is a true characteristic of the Coopers handling then it would be evident regardless of wheel size?

Plus by adding ASC+T I would think would go a long way to eliminating it?

[Red & White Cooper 2]

Quote:

Help me out on this one R+W but regardless of BHP doesn't a wider tyre mean more grip?

A wider tyre should mean more grip, certainly on smooth surfaces. Road test reports confirm that the Cooper on 16" wheels has more grip than the Cooper on 15", but found the handling more progressive with the 15s. In theory the 17" should have even more grip, but I think there is a law of diminishing returns. In theory you can't exceed 1g without aero-dynamic assistance no matter how wide your tyres are. In recent reports on test driving the S, more than one road tester thought the 17" wheels "magnified the ride harshness without improving cornering grip to any significant degree."

The larger wheels come with a weight penalty, which some have commented on, but this won't affect the grip on smooth surfaces.

You are correct that a wider tyre should mean more grip regardless of BHP. However, in a front wheel drive car, the front tyres do most of the work - steering, braking and transmitting power. If you apply power while cornering, there is less grip available to corner, so there is a link between BHP and tyre size.

I'm afraid I don't really understand Mike's comment on cornering like a 50p piece.

[ScottyHP]

Well there you go I agree the main grip difference will be seen by comparing 15" to 17" like I said, nice to know I wasn't too far off the mark

As for the 50 p reference I believe he means having to correct steering therfore taking a corner not in an exact curve but what seems like the slight flats/angles of a 50p.... I think? well he must be doing something different to me when I test drove a Cooper I found the grip and steering very positive (on 17"s but no ASC+T) but having not experienced a cooper with 15" can not really comment on any improvement in steering, although this is maybe understandable as the 17" wheels on my 3 series do grab the road surface more so than the standard 15" alloys that were originaly on it.

[mike58]

I stand by my comments re standard Cooper spec vs. Sp + Susp +16s.
There is little point in thinking that grip alone is ultimate driver spec what the majority of skilled drivers want is controllable oversteer / slidability.
My 115BHP BMW 318 had 205/55/16s and with its power to weight ratio was no fun as grip exceeded power in all but the most extreme conditions.
The Cooper is no lightweight and its power modest so skinny tyres with less grip are the drivers spec.
Of course if its only looks and grip you want go for 16s or 17s but on 16s put on 195/50 Yokohama A 032s and have all the grip you want.
The Sp + susp option may work better with lower profile tyres eg 45.
The car I demoed was on 16s with 195/55 and Sp+ Susp which is still a tall tyre and the susp was far too stiff for the tyre profile hence the 50p piece analogy --- go into a corner hard and the car feels flat due to the taut susp. but as the tall tyre loses grip it understeers and causes you to correct your steering input.
This does not happen so much with the standard spec setup as the car rolls sl more so you instinctivly use less steering lock although the lower centre of gravity means that the roll is less.
It's all a bit anorakish and I am talking about antisocial cornering speeds( the demo salesman was in shock)but the original thread was about ultimate DRIVER spec and it is imperative that the supension and tyres work in harmony to provide sweet handling.
The standard Cooper spec does just that.

Dr Mike

[KlausR]

Hello Mike!

The level of your considerations concerning driving dynamics is much higher than most drivers would care, but I like that.
My experience with online car communities showed me that most of the drivers don´t care about performance and chassis feedback. Habits like lowering only the front suspension or using wider rear tires on FWD cars support that theory. Starting with that assumption you can imagine how much I appreciate your argumentation.

I´ve tested the Cooper with standard suspension and 15-inch-tires in the wet as well as a SSP Version on 16". The facts that the second test drive was in dry condition and that I was more familiar with the car lead to a more aggressive driving style. First of all the grip level of the tiny 15in wheels even in the wet astonished me, but on the second drive I experienced that you don´t have to pull out the crowbar to make the wider tires scream and the rear of the car twitch.

Your favourites are the smallest wheels with their predictable and adjustable handling, others go for the spectacular 17" alloys. I add the arguments harmonic look and improved braking grip and end up in voting for the IMHO best compromise 16".

I even haven´t a real choice when going for a Cooper S.

Klaus

[Mini Beemer]

Dr Mike,

Which Glasgow dealer did you get your Mini from?

Quote:

Originally posted by mike58
My Cooper was specd. specificaly on standard susp+15" tyres.

The car sits lower (16s raise the car up to 12mm) it turns in quicker due to the skinny tyres, it is more accelerative due to the lower gearing and slides more when provoked producing grin inducing oversteer.

With only 115 BHP you are simply posing with 17s and if my expeience with Sp + susp is anything to go by the car grips understeers then grips again simulating cornering round a 50p piece.

If you are serious about trying various demo cars take a tyre press guage with you and check they are not overinflated as all loan and demo cars I have tried were 8-10 PSI over.

If you really want more grip on 15s there are a few road legal motorsport tyres avail that will simply astonish you with their grip levels over their limited lifespan.

Dr Mike

[mike58]

My dealer is Faibairn Giffnock Glasgow.
Talk to Duncan as he is an enthusiast ( esp Scalextrics!!)
If I may say a bit more aboput the UDS ( ult drivers spec)If I were tracking the car I would fit 16s with sticky tyres 195/50 profile. The gearing would be legal but significantly quicker than the stock profile, I would fit either Yokohama A032s or Michelin Pilot Cup Sport tyres.
Mike

[Mini Beemer]

Cheers for the info Mike. The contact I have at Fairbairn (Giffnock) is Penny Reid. I assume you have had no problems with them, and would recommend them? The other dealer I would consider is Henry Bros - have you had any dealings with them?

Quote:

Originally posted by mike58
My dealer is Faibairn Giffnock Glasgow.

Talk to Duncan as he is an enthusiast ( esp Scalextrics!!)

If I may say a bit more aboput the UDS ( ult drivers spec)If I were tracking the car I would fit 16s with sticky tyres 195/50 profile. The gearing would be legal but significantly quicker than the stock profile, I would fit either Yokohama A032s or Michelin Pilot Cup Sport tyres.

Mike

[mike58]

Both Penny and Duncan are fine to deal with.
We are of course talking about a car that is not yet discounted so the only come and go is on trade in if any.
Fairbairns service is also aware of this web site and have dealt with the early problems well.
Mike

[Damo]

Quote:

Originally posted by Red & White Cooper 2
Blade, you are partly correct, so no shooting down in flames! However, although the tyre wall is narrower, it is not quite narrow enough to compensate for the larger wheel size. Mike says they raise the car up 12mm. He may be right. All I know is that the Cooper S (with 16" wheels) has a ride height which is 8 mm higher than the Cooper (with 15" wheels).

Just apoint, the 17" wheels and tyres have a smaller rollijng radius than the 16's, so the 17" shod car should be somewhere between 16" wheels and 15" wheels

[mike58]

Anorak Time!!

The overall wheel/tyre diameters are as follows

175/65/15 608.5mm

195/55/16 620.9mm

205/45/17 616.3mm


My spec for ult spec that is legal 195/50/16 601.4mm Also 195/55/15 595.5mm is also within 3% of factory diam.
This size will significantly lower the gearing comp to 195/55/16s and also lower centre of gravity by 12.7mm which will improve handling greatly.
I think that 17s look great but 45 profile may not suit standard susp. settings. ie grip exceeds roll and the car lurches round cornrers ( 50p piece).
Mike