[pcm84]

I'm here in the US and considering a COOPER -- mostly because my wife and I travel to France several times a year and we're very open to the idea of a small, efficient "complete" car... cars like the MINI in Europe are (don't take this the wrong way) a dime a dozen. At least to a certain extent, if you want a small, well-conceived, well-equiped automobile you have many, many valid choices... we've rented Polo's and Clio's and Twingo's and 206's and LOVED them.

Here in the states we're limited to the choice of say the Scion Xa (or Echo... aka Yeck-o, the VW Golf, the Ford Focus, or the MINI... the MINI being the smallest of these. And I do think the styling of the MINI is a knock out.

I've been lurking here for two weeks, doing my home work, have test driven a MINI, and love it.

And I can live with the miniscule rear seating area and the 115hp -- after all, my wife and I are on the waiting list for one of the gray market SMART cars that's about to come into the country -- I think the MINI might be about the same price as what the ForTwo might cost when it finally gets here. So, Motoring isn't necessarily about speed.

And I can even live with the price of the MINI, too -- which is to say the least, PREMIUM.

Because the idea of the MINI is, just that, PREMIUM. For two people the MINI is conceived of as a up-to-date, thoroughly equiped and delightful to drive "motorcar." Details like the windows that lower themselves before opening the door say something about the driver of this car; this driver isn't "deprived," -- he's intelligent. I like to think of the design mantra of the Miata when it was introduced -- the car was conceived as "elemental" and NOT "basic."

I can live with all that -- but here comes the zinger. What I don't think I could live with is that I would part with my 20K to get a car that's not well put together... that leaks or rattles or surges or yo-yo's or has its transmission fail or has paint peel off or fill in the blank (apparently at least a few of you can do this rather easily). I've been doing my homework, reading the comments here, and quality concerns seem to be an integral part of MINI ownership, validated by the rankings of the car in J.D. Power surveys. Hyundai has worked at getting their act together and they've done it. Ford has essentially rescued a brilliant design in the FOCUS by getting its stateside quality to where it should be. How long will it be before MINI rises above it's (sorry about this) Britishness?

I'm 46 years old and I'm just not ready to purchase something that I and my friends would in private company call a P.O.S. (which is how a best friend REGULARLY describes his $40,000 Jaguar S-Type) or what someone in the Old Country might call "duff." I've been through that and I don't want to go back. Who does?

I could go to a MINI dealer tomorrow and put my hands on a Chili Red 5speed Cooper with Cold and Premium and Chrome bits... and be staring at our dream COOP.

But am I fooling myself? Is this really smart? Be honest with me.



PS, thanks for your comments in advance. This is clearly a wonderful, wonderful web site and clearly the love people on this site share for their COOP's must make a world of difference in owning such special cars. Patrick

[Paul]

To be honest, I'd be much more concerned about a Smart than a MINI, but then, the Smart is a much cheaper car, so I guess you could accept more quality issues due to the lower price tag? I only say this based on the experience of others I know who own or work on Smart cars.

The current MINI is much improved on the early car, build quality is always on the up, and I know that so many parts have been updated or modified since release it would be virtually impossible to name them all!

I'm not confident enough to say, buy the MINI, I guarantee you'll not have a problem, but from the tone of your post I would be confident to say, buy the MINI, you wont regret it!

A lot of the people on here are real car nuts, real MINI nuts, and they want the best from their MINI, myself included. If I owned a Ford, even one that cost the same as the MINI, I'd probably not be too bothered or annoyed at a few small issues with the trim, or fit and finish, but with the MINI, the tinniest little rattle would (and has in the past) driven me mad!

Considering the number of cars out there, the number of new or recurring problems is certainly on the decline, and although you might read a lot of problems, it's the unlucky owners who have them, not the average owner.

[Cold Side]

People are more likely to sign up to a MINI site if their car has something wrong with it than if they do not.

People are more likely to post about the fact their car has something wrong with it then if it is fine.

Oh and by the way..........Jaguar are owned by Ford............

[MINImeat]

Another post by someone worried they'll be buying a bad car.
If you over-analyze anything you can't justify it.
If you truly LIKE the MINI you will LOVE owning one.
Some people have had problems.
Most people have not or have had minor problems.
Many people who have had problems still love their MINIs.
I've owned a 9/02 build-date MCS since 10/23/02. I have 13.5K on it.
My list of everything I've had to live with:
Leaking coolant overflow bottle. Replaced in 2 hours at dealer.
Slow leak in a runflat due to screw. Repaired at tire store.
Buzzes in doors. Applied felt tape to rear edge of panels.
That's it. I'm waiting for it to fall apart, but it hasn't yet.
I LOVE MY MINI.

[KJHawley]

Quote: Originally Posted by pcm84

I've been doing my homework, reading the comments here, and quality concerns seem to be an integral part of MINI ownership, validated by the rankings of the car in J.D. Power surveys.

The J.D. Power surveys seem to be all over the place regarding the MINI. The 2003 APEAL study has it ranked 1st in the US. in the compact class, which sounds pretty good:
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/rele...yID=788&CatID=1
But it's ranked 56th in other studies in Europe:
http://www.whatcar.com/News_SpecialR...p?NA_ID=207800
or see the thread here:
http://www.mini2.com/forum/general-discussion/56843-mini-comes-56th-jd-power-2004-a.html
So Europeans have higher expectations than Americans? The MINI's quality drops off drastically after two years?
I'm in the same boat you are (except for the "traveling frequently to France" part )- I'm replacing my less-than-reliable Plymouth Neon, & am torn between the MINI and something that will probably be more reliable like a Hyundai or a Honda. I, too, have been somewhat scared off by all the "problem MINIs" I've read about, both here and elsewhere. I think Paul's right- there are a lot of cars out there, & ANY brand is likely to have a certain number of problem cars. The owners of those problem cars are likely to make a lot of noise about them, while the satisfied owners stay quiet and drive happily.
For a similar comparison, go to tripadvisor.com and look up any hotels with which you've had a positive experience. Almost every hotel on that site will have some horrible reviews about some nightmarish visits that would make you think "Wow, I'd never stay there!" Except, of course, that you already have stayed there, and had an entirely different experience.
Anyways, that's my justification (at least for right now). Of course, I may change my mind, and end up getting the Consumer Reports-friendly Mazda3, which was "nice" but not nearly as much fun to drive as a MINI...

[dmholmes]

I've had a fair chunk of problems but still love the car. I am also the type that likes to drive different vehicles, so I'm looking at the Mini as a car that I will probably not hang onto long term (i.e. past the warranty period). It is the most entertaining front wheel drive car I have driven, and I've driven quite a few fun ones over the years. If you plan on keeping a car for a long period and driving it into the ground, something more reliable may be a better choice. If you're looking for an absolute blast of a driving experience for 4 to 6 years, go for the Mini, no questions asked.

[andyupnorth]

You can only go by your own experiences.....I drove out of my dealership 8 months ago in my Cooper and I have never been back. 8000 miles trouble free motoring - and I would consider myself to be pretty hard to please when it comes to cars.
I did consider other cars before I made my purchase but every time I get in and slam the door I thank-------(insert the deity of your choice here) I picked my MINI.

[SteveM3]

I'm sure there are sites in the states that will tell you how much your Mazda 3,
nice car by the way not knocking it, will be worth in three years time and compare
that to the MINI. The MINI wins as a car to drive, a car to be seen in and a car to own.
Go on you know you want one really.......

[Doctor Wha?]

Wait... You travel to France "several times a year," and yet consider the price of the Mini to be "PREMIUM?" Okay...


I think some sense of scale would be helpful here. You realize, of course, you're talking about roughly the same money you'd spend on a Ford Focus? Not exactly "premium" in that light, and certainly not for the car you get if you go that route... A well-appointed, $60,000 6-Series BMW is "premium." A $400,000 Rolls is astronomical.

In any case, I had the same trepidations as you did before ordering. And yes, I too practically memorized everything in the "Faults & Fixes" forum. You are indeed doing you homework, and are to be commended for it.

In retrospect though, I would take those threads with a teensy grain of salt. After all, anywhere a group of true "enthusiasts" gather, one will find that many of them are "enthusiastic" almost to the point of obsessive perfectionism. Tiny bugs that seem only vaguely bothersome to most will, in the eyes of the enthusiast, become much worse, and will be described in far more inflammatory terms. But for every one of them, you'll find many more who have little or no problems at all.

Furthermore, consider the sheer numbers of Minis sold in the US alone since it was introduced, and compare that to the "Faults" reported online, or in surveys. They're a drop in the bucket, and not outside any reasonable statistical expectation. Despite the genuine, level-best efforts of BMW/MINI, nothing is perfect, nor can it be. There will be bugs and fixes for any car, of any make.

You could go with any other brand, and find you have problems there as well. That's life on planet Earth. As we know, nothing's perfect. But the question then becomes: How does the Mini rate as a value for the cost?

The marketing folks have done an excellent job in selling the idea that driving a Mini is akin to motoring Nirvana (the enlightened state, as opposed to the defunct band). Of course, this is impossible for any car.

What it is, however, is an amazing amount of design, options, performance, safety, engineering, and science for the same money you'd spend on a car with far less thought put into it elsewhere. Sure, you can rack up the total with options, but those are just that: Options. When considering value, look at the essentials: Find another car with 6 airbags, stability control of some degree, and an engine that, in a head-on crash, disconnects and goes under your legs instead of into them - standard, mind you - with a base price around 17k.

But one thing I have never heard, or read - until your post - was the idea that a Mini could be called a "POS." I've seen some of those, and driven others in my life. The Mini is nowhere close.

This car has, as it has with others, inspired you to do an inordinate amount of research and questioning. You wonder if you're "fooling yourself." You sound like the kind of person who hasn't been "given everything," as the class warfare cry goes these days, but rather, works for, and earns, what you have. You want the best you can get for that money. In other words, you sound a lot like me.

Good for you.

But in the end, you say you've test driven a Mini, and "loved it," and talk about a "dream COOP." So ask yourself: When you test drove the other cars on your list of candidates, even those that match the same cost-value comparison, did any of them provoke a reaction along that scale?

I can't give you the "honest" (nay, definitive?) answer you're looking for. No one can do that, really, but you. But I can tell you this:


Perfection is impossible... But joy is almost as rare.


.02
DW

[dr remulac]

Quote: Originally Posted by Doctor Wha?

Wait... You travel to France "several times a year," and yet consider the price of the Mini to be "PREMIUM?" Okay...


I think some sense of scale would be helpful here. You realize, of course, you're talking about roughly the same money you'd spend on a Ford Focus? Not exactly "premium" in that light, and certainly not for the car you get if you go that route... A well-appointed, $60,000 6-Series BMW is "premium." A $400,000 Rolls is astronomical.

In any case, I had the same trepidations as you did before ordering. And yes, I too practically memorized everything in the "Faults & Fixes" forum. You are indeed doing you homework, and are to be commended for it.

In retrospect though, I would take those threads with a teensy grain of salt. After all, anywhere a group of true "enthusiasts" gather, one will find that many of them are "enthusiastic" almost to the point of obsessive perfectionism. Tiny bugs that seem only vaguely bothersome to most will, in the eyes of the enthusiast, become much worse, and will be described in far more inflammatory terms. But for every one of them, you'll find many more who have little or no problems at all.

Furthermore, consider the sheer numbers of Minis sold in the US alone since it was introduced, and compare that to the "Faults" reported online, or in surveys. They're a drop in the bucket, and not outside any reasonable statistical expectation. Despite the genuine, level-best efforts of BMW/MINI, nothing is perfect, nor can it be. There will be bugs and fixes for any car, of any make.

You could go with any other brand, and find you have problems there as well. That's life on planet Earth. As we know, nothing's perfect. But the question then becomes: How does the Mini rate as a value for the cost?

The marketing folks have done an excellent job in selling the idea that driving a Mini is akin to motoring Nirvana (the enlightened state, as opposed to the defunct band). Of course, this is impossible for any car.

What it is, however, is an amazing amount of design, options, performance, safety, engineering, and science for the same money you'd spend on a car with far less thought put into it elsewhere. Sure, you can rack up the total with options, but those are just that: Options. When considering value, look at the essentials: Find another car with 6 airbags, stability control of some degree, and an engine that, in a head-on crash, disconnects and goes under your legs instead of into them - standard, mind you - with a base price around 17k.

But one thing I have never heard, or read - until your post - was the idea that a Mini could be called a "POS." I've seen some of those, and driven others in my life. The Mini is nowhere close.

This car has, as it has with others, inspired you to do an inordinate amount of research and questioning. You wonder if you're "fooling yourself." You sound like the kind of person who hasn't been "given everything," as the class warfare cry goes these days, but rather, works for, and earns, what you have. You want the best you can get for that money. In other words, you sound a lot like me.

Good for you.

But in the end, you say you've test driven a Mini, and "loved it," and talk about a "dream COOP." So ask yourself: When you test drove the other cars on your list of candidates, even those that match the same cost-value comparison, did any of them provoke a reaction along that scale?

I can't give you the "honest" (nay, definitive?) answer you're looking for. No one can do that, really, but you. But I can tell you this:


Perfection is impossible... But joy is almost as rare.


.02
DW

Great post dr wha? that just about sums it up.
I'd say 99% of the complaints are from about 2%
of the owners...
I have 23,000 trouble free miles on my 2003 Cooper,
but guys like me never post when everything is good.

[SGTPepper]

[pcm84]

I appreciate the discussion here... I really expect nothing less. MINI2.com features as it's greatest asset an unusual and inspired DEVOTION. I'd love to hear more comments about my initial question.

I AM suprised that this thread was moved from the General Discussion area.

My question and this thread isn't a MODEL question but a BRAND question.... It's obvious a MINI can be justified emotionally... is it, however a smart purchase?

Yes, I happen to be interested in a COOPER, but I'd be no less diligent if I were considering an MCS.

Let's face it, even the most agricultural of MGB's has a high joy coeffecient -- which didn't keep the company from sputtering out in a quite inglorious fashion. Owners want their joy AND their self-respect. To wit: the success of the... er... the Miata.

Would you consider moving this thread back to where it was?


PS... (and maybe this is rather model specific) isn't $17,000 for essentially a two-seater with 115hp essentially a PREMIUM price... I think there are those who would agree with me that it is.

[SGTPepper]

I sold my 1998 Lexus GS300 and bought a MINI. No car is totally trouble free. Even the Lexus had issues, mainly rattles and body integrity, but that was a $40,000 car.

Sorry about the blank post

[LizL]

Well- you won't be giving up much speed with the Cooper! Mine seems to love passing everyone else on the backroads without the least problem. Also, the JD Power survey does not distinguish between the models. The engine problems such as the yo-yo and stumble are related to the S, not the Cooper.

I love my '04 Cooper. Its a blast to drive and gets reasonable gas mileage. I have not experienced squeaks, rattles or any other annoyances. My take on MINI buyers, particularly the S, is that it has attracted a lot of car fanatics that look for perfection in a vehicle.

I am someone who test drove one and thought it was great fun. I wanted the Cooper for the mileage, I' m not someone that needs the super charged engine.

I also feel like my MINI is making a statrement to the SUV mania in this country- "Look at me, I'm having fun in a 12' car and I can find parking !" I got a plate to extoll the virtues of going small- MINIFY.

I think you'd enjoy the MINI. Good luck.

[ScottyB]

Buy the MINI. There simply isnt anything else like it...

[Roberto]

There may be some build issues here and there, but then again, finding a used MINI for under $16,000 is still difficult. Overall, people are hanging on to them. With a depreciation rate this low, if the MINI doesn't meet your expectations, you can bail out without loosing as much money as you would in a Focus.

Like you said, it is a "premium" small car. Even BWM acknowledges that. It may be a lot of fun for the dollar, but it is not the cheapest small car to buy, and then maintain out of warranty. Budget accordingly.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[ScottyB]

Out of warranty maintenance will be interesting....

Anyone had theres for numerous years out of warranty? What sort of problems/expenses have been encountered?

[Doctor Wha?]

Quote: Originally Posted by pcm84

I appreciate the discussion here... I really expect nothing less. MINI2.com features as it's greatest asset an unusual and inspired DEVOTION. I'd love to hear more comments about my initial question.

I believe I did comment on your initial question(s), but if it helps, I will condense the "answer:" The questions you would like to have answered as objective fact are more a matter of subjective opinion, and ultimately, only you can answer them for yourself. But it sounds like your primary goal is to talk yourself out of the Mini. I'm sorry, but I can't help you there, either.

Quote: Originally Posted by pcm84

My question and this thread isn't a MODEL question but a BRAND question.... It's obvious a MINI can be justified emotionally... is it, however a smart purchase?

This is precisely my point: Any survey or website you want to read can be spun in any direction you like. Crunch almost any set of numbers you find, and you can crunch them in a way to get the results you're already looking for. "Smart" is not a universal definition. It depends on the goals you have in mind for the subject in question.

Furthermore, I did comment on that question when I addressed the statistical relevance of the complaints, the engineering and features versus the cost, etc. I could repeat it all here, but I think it would be easier to re-read the post.

Quote: Originally Posted by pcm84

...isn't $17,000 for essentially a two-seater with 115hp essentially a PREMIUM price... I think there are those who would agree with me that it is.

I've fit more than two people in the very same "two-seater," and we drove about 100 miles together quite comfortably. That seems to defy your rather general definition. Also, as with the features for the money, there is more to the totality of the car than the simplistic focus on "horsepower." 115 horsepower is plenty for a car that weighs in at only about 2,500 lbs. What the car does with that horsepower through its transmission, and how it relates to the road are other very vitial points in the overall picture. I've driven V-8s, V-6s, domestics, imports, etc. The Mini has no power deficiencies of significant concern for any reasonable driver.

Given that in my research into the car, I amassed a binder of about 450 pages of reviews, commentary, articles, write-ups, statistics, etc. (and that's just the material I found worthy of keeping), I could go over every aspect of the Mini you like in agonizing detail, but I don't know that it will help you. I won't bother repeating my extensive commentary on the suspension and CVT, as you can find them through thread searches. Even so, you seem to have made up your mind already.


If you are trying to talk yourself out of the Mini, and looking for someone to validate your "It's too good to be true" outlook, that's your choice, and you are welcome to it. You can read into my statements whatever "emotion" you like, or choose to ignore certain other parts of them. I've tried to be as helpful as I can, but the bottom line is that if you have a choice to make, only you can make it.

I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help to you. But in this case, I think you need to help yourself more than anyone here can.


Good luck,
DW

[Doctor Wha?]

Quote: Originally Posted by ScottyB

Out of warranty maintenance will be interesting....

Anyone had theres for numerous years out of warranty? What sort of problems/expenses have been encountered?

That question's answer is still somewhat ahead of us. Minis have a 4-year warranty, so the first ones are, or will be, just coming out from under that umbrella soon.


You know, it occurs to me that for some, a four-year warranty on a 17k car would seem a rather "smart" thing to have...

Oops! Different question. Sorry.


DW

[dmholmes]

Actually I think the 4 year warranty only applies to us Yanks. I think we have a longer warranty than most of the world.