[KlausR]

Hi!

Finally the high reputation German performance car mag "sport auto" has conducted the famous "Supertest" with a MINI, actually a MCS JCW. The test consists of several dynamic tests like 0-125 mph-0 combined acceleration and braking procedure, slalom, evasive action and maximum roadholding and aerodynamic evaluation. Even more important are the laptimes which are set on a shorter section of the German Grand Prix course at Hockenheim (1.6 miles) and the famous Nurburgring Nordschleife (13 miles). The car can score in 7 drills, each a maximum of 10 points.
They compare every car with a matched reference car, in this case the Honda Civic Type-R.

However, while the MCS was able to achieve the same final score of 35/70 points as the Type-R, the overall rating was rather bad. The major points were heavy understeer, fading brakes and minor corner exit traction because of the lack of a LSD. Especially the laptimes resulted far behind the expectiations. 1 min 22.2 sec in Hockenheim is 1.3 seconds slower than the Civic and a dramatic 3.8 seconds behind the Ford Focus RS. The Nurburgring time isn´t any better, at 8 min 55 sec the only car that came off worse during the series was the Golf V6 4motion at 9 min 09 sec.
for comparison:

Civic Type-R: 8 min 47 sec
EVO VII: 8 min 25 sec
WRX:8 min 24 sec

The testers admit that the phenomenal turn in ability of the MINI does provide to the great driving fun on the road, but they miss the serious continuation of that aggressive setup for track use.
The results have to be seen in the context of the whole test. The drills are extremely ambitious and even much more expensive and powerful performance cars like the Audi RS4 or the Mercedes SL55 failed to settle the mag´s claims concerning racetrack capability.
The whole thing does in fact confirm my suspicion that the MCS is desirable as a driver´s car because it´s tactile and easy to drive fast, but does not achieve the amount of class-independent competitiveness that many here call upon.

Klaus

[RobHardyUK]

I so have to go there one day, Nurburgring. Has to be done.

[Wobert]

Quote: Originally Posted by RobHardyUK

I so have to go there one day, Nurburgring. Has to be done.

Been there......done that.......got the boot badge........!!

Definately want to go again........but a new baby may cause postponement of that for a few more years!

Robert

[HObzy]

I still cant see why mags and journos continually try to test the MCS against cars that were specifically designed throughout to be Hot Hatches, like the RS and the CTR . Even with the JCW kit, it still has the same suspension etc as the cooper. They should be more surprised it gets so close . Personally i think the compromise in the mini is spot on for the numbers they are trying to sell (and have).

I'd be interested to know how many laps they got to do in each at the ring.

My 2p.

[KlausR]

@HObzy

Well, if you take a look at the Type-R, that doesn´t look to me like an uncompromized track car either. It´s a family minivan that has been successfully modified for hot hatch performance. If BMW doesn´t want the MINI to be a performance car they should have stayed away from the MCS and the JCW kit.
And under that circumstances I think it´s fair to try to find out if the car can stand the aggressive drving style that is implied by the numbers.

If you go through the hot hatch class you won´t find too many cars that are really up to the job. The Alfa 147 GTA has a great engine, but does understeer far too much as well, the Golf R32 is too domesticated either.Clio and Peugeot 206 are sharp drives, but lack the substance of the MINI or a Volkswagen. Only the Focus RS had the poise and strength to really compete with much more powerful RWD and AWD cars on track. And that one wasn´t such a hoot to drive on the road.

Concerning the test conditions and number of laps, I hope that I can answer you in a few weeks, the next issue features a background article about that.

Klaus

[HObzy]

Quote: Originally Posted by KlausR

Well, if you take a look at the Type-R, that doesn´t look to me like an uncompromized track car either. It´s a family minivan that has been successfully modified for hot hatch performance.

Precisely my point. But it has been really well modified - its the only hatch in the Touring car champs over here now.

Quote: Originally Posted by KlausR

If BMW doesn´t want the MINI to be a performance car they should have stayed away from the MCS and the JCW kit.

but the rest of the car is not modified. The JCW kit doesnt change anything but the power...

Quote: Originally Posted by KlausR

And under that circumstances I think it´s fair to try to find out if the car can stand the aggressive drving style that is implied by the numbers.

Can you explain hat you mean by this?

Quote: Originally Posted by KlausR

If you go through the hot hatch class you won´t find too many cars that are really up to the job. The Alfa 147 GTA has a great engine, but does understeer far too much as well, the Golf R32 is too domesticated either.Clio and Peugeot 206 are sharp drives, but lack the substance of the MINI or a Volkswagen. Only the Focus RS had the poise and strength to really compete with much more powerful RWD and AWD cars on track. And that one wasn´t such a hoot to drive on the road.

I agree with you there... but isnt that my point? Joe average doesnt want to drive a track modified car on long journeys or through town to go shopping. So modern hatches have to be a compromise. Dont forget the JCW is still an aftermarket kit, just one that is officially sanctioned by BMW. Will they re-test when the kit includes suspension and brake upgrades? That would be a fair comparison to the RS then. (but the RS is 2 litre isnt it )

Quote: Originally Posted by KlausR

Concerning the test conditions and number of laps, I hope that I can answer you in a few weeks, the next issue features a background article about that.

Klaus

Thank you, let us know.

Cheers, Hobzy

[HObzy]

Quote:

Ford Focus RS is the closest you can get to a road-going version of Colin McRae's World Rally Championship contender, deliberately using many of Ford’s WRC respected motorsport technology partners including: Sparco (seats), Garrett Technologies (turbocharger), O.Z. Racing (wheels), Brembo (brakes), Sachs Racing (dampers), Quaife (differential) and AP Racing (clutch).

Hardly just an engine upgrade is it.

Quote:

Despite the performance intent and aggressive stance – with a wheelbase and wide front/rear track identical to the Focus WRC’s tarmac competition settings – Ford Ford Focus RS also offers superb driving comfort, dependability and practicality for everyday driving.

Not so sure about everyday comfort but hey... Everything on this car is tweaked.

[HObzy]

Quote:

The Type-R’s handling benefits from firmer springs and dampers than standard 3 door models, uprated anti-roll bars front and rear

Quote:

Braking is by large ventilated discs with solid discs at the rear with both ABS anti lock and Electronic Brake force Distribution (EBD) maximising retardation.

Quote:

200PS 2.0 litre DOHC i-VTEC engine

So, they both have bigger engines, bigger brakes, and more tweaked suspension. I rest my case, it isnt a fair comparison, and the MCS JCW did well to keep within that time gap.

[Poisonedwell]

I've always loved Hondas and have had quite a few so far. I drove an 02' Civic Si hatchback (a de-tuned version of the CTR) for about a year and a half and loved the interior and styling but felt Honda jipped the US market b/c the CTR was never brought here. It wasn't very composed around corners, had a 160hp engine which was 40 behind the CTR, and looked much more plain without the special Type R bumpers and side extensions. The Si and CTR are both produced in the same Swindon, England plant for for some unknown reason we never got the sweet Type R. If we had, I am 99.9% sure that's what I'd have now (despite the fact that I love my MCS)

[KlausR]

My point is, I didn´t expect the MCS to match the performance of a highly modified hot hatch, that despite the compromizes in comfort and everyday practicality costs 50 percent more (Ford).

But a quite large group of MINI2 members seems to be of the opinion that you can beat anything short of a McLaren F1 in a standard MCS on track. And that simply is an illusion. A Porsche 911 will eat the MCS for breakfast, not only because it has lots more power but because it can - despite the chuckability of the MINI -carry more speed through long bends, it brakes better and can put the power down earlier when exiting a corner.

No doubt, the driving experience, the agility and adjustability of the handling, the drivíng position and the overall appeal of the MINI are sensational, but that doesn´t neccessarily translate into supercar performance.

Klaus

[RobHardyUK]

Who ever compared the performance of a MINI to a porsche?

[KlausR]

Quote: Originally Posted by RobHardyUK

Who ever compared the performance of a MINI to a porsche?

The question is what system of evaluation you trust in. Those who had real-life encounters in which they seemed to come out quite well will rely on that, but I would think laptimes set on a closed circuit by pros under controlled circumstances are more reliable than subjective anecdotes.

And the power laptimes I have access to see the standard 911 about 10 percent quicker than the MCS, which is a lot for laptimes.

The Porsche accelerates 30 percent better, brakes 5 percent quicker and produces about 10 percent higher lateral g-forces. And although the MINI does very well in quick transitions like the slalom and swerving that isn´t enough to totally outperform the 911.

And please don´t come with "the Porsche is 4 times the price", I´m not saying the MINI has to be better, I´m just saying it´s obvious that it can´t.

Klaus

[HObzy]

When people on the forums claim to have stuffed 911s etc with an mcs, they usually get shot down in flames or reminded that driver skill plays a big part. Speaking from track experience, driver skill/bottle/etc plays a massive part. And as for motorway etc, it usually boils down to who can be bothered to keep their foot down or take a stupid risk. I see no point in racing a NOVA boy who thinks he's quick just because he will take stupid risks on a public rd . I know i'd waste him on the track (probably) . People who harp on about what car they have overtaken dont get the point of the mini.

Klaus, i dont think we are disagreeing here. It wasnt you or your post that got me going, only the fact that the press seem to constantly want to put the mini down. for no other reason than they have got nothing more interesting to write about.

[shedend]

Spot on H0bzy

[Poisonedwell]

Quote: Originally Posted by HObzy

I see no point in racing a NOVA boy who thinks he's quick just because he will take stupid risks on a public rd . I know i'd waste him on the track (probably) . People who harp on about what car they have overtaken dont get the point of the mini.

May I ask what a NOVA boy is?

[HObzy]

Too see what a Nova boy is and drives, have a look at the following site...DO NOT READ IF EASILY OFFENDED BY FOUL LANGUAGE AND BADLY MODDED CARS.

http://www.barryboys.co.uk/

Nova boys are young scamps in cheap crap cars who think they have a fast car because it has a baked bean tin for an exhaust.

By the way i have nothing against well modded cars

[mlebeau]

Quote: Originally Posted by Poisonedwell

May I ask what a NOVA boy is?

That's British for ricer kid.

-mike

[Poisonedwell]

It seems to me, after looking at that site, that older VWs in the UK are equivalent to older Hondas in the US as far as wasting insane amounts of money to make them look and sound far worse.

[HObzy]

I think youve hit the nail firmly on its head!