MCS Engine noise when cold

[Czar]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocco9999 (original)

Not wanting to be pedantic, but I think its the other way round. The Prince engine is a BMW unit produced at Hams Hall and uses BMW proprietory tech such as Valvetronic & VANOS.

As I understood it, PSA (Peugeot to you) just buy the unit from BMW.

not heard of any issues in the 207GTI though...

Sadly Rocco9999 your facts are slightly incorrect, the prince engine, is a revision of the original Peugeot TU engine, designed by PSA (Peugeot/Citroen) BMW simply worked along side the PSA engineers, and offered technical advancement and utilising BMW's valvetronic vanos timing system, direct fuel injection and the on demand water and oil systems.

Hams hall is just BMW's engine assembly plant.

[Dave05]

Hello! I read a few pages back and found a post about replacing this:
minigenuineparts.co.uk/mi...7_597_895.html
I have a '07 Mini Cooper (not S) and experiencing the rattling noise after cold start, however in the thread i found only r56 MC"S" owners. Is it possible to replace the same item in a Cooper or i need a different part? Is it even the same problem in a Cooper? What problems can be if i use the car like this?
I ask your help becouse the car is out of warranty and dealer is hopeless, im on my own.
Thank you!

[Tracie]

Cooo..eee I've not been on here for a long while, but an update on my Nov 58 MCS.

1st fix on rattle done at 600 miles from new in Jan 2009, second rattle fixed in October 2010.. and low and behold its started rattling yesterday, albeit not as noisey as it could be.
My warranty runs out end of Nov so Im getting it in before then and hope then can recreate the sound .

Totally not convinced that MINI know what they are doing and I shall be logging it with the service manager as I will not be forking out this time next year when it no doubt will rattle again after a 3rd fix and I am not spending out on an extended warranty either.
Tomorrow I shall be logging the complaint in person to the service manager and getting a print out of the warranty work to date.
Will keep you posted what happens

[beyondthebars]

Just taken mine (02/07 MCS) in to my local dealership to be told the rattling is not due to any timing chain or tensioner problem but a litre down in oil! When I asked how come if the oil was so low, why the oil light didn't come on or why I never noticed the last time I checked (a month ago) on an albeit useless to read dipstick. They said the car doesn't have an oil level indicator light, just an oil pressure light?

I've asked them to explain nevertheless why I heard the same rattle 2 months after purchase to be told 'it was a feature of this engine' even though they said they couldn't hear it! Was it short of oil then, 2 months after they checked it?

My warranty runs out end of March so have told them in no uncertain terms that if the rattle on cold start is still there (I thought I'd let them top it up with oil so there can be no dispute) I would be back, and to record that fact on their service records. I'm concerned that this is delaying tactics until my warranty expires.

[Cooper S Jon]

according to the manual there is a low oil message,but this might only show if sat nav fitted..

i check my oil once a fortnight on my mcs,i have no problem reading the dipstick..

[Nezquick]

Hi all
Just bought by '57 MCS 3 weeks ago. All fine until last night and then low and behold, the death rattle started - it sounded awful for about 3-4 minutes then quietened down and didn't recur. I'm going to take it back to Bowker Mini (Preston) on Monday as it's under warranty. Fingers crossed they'll just fix it as I specifically mentioned this problem to them on MCS's when I bought it.

[Iautox]

After writing this post I decided to move the last part to the top so that everyone can cut to the chase for some useful information. Then if they want they can read the rest to see how I came to my opinions. Here’s to better luck with your Mini than I’ve had with mine. As much as I’ve enjoyed driving it I’ve hated owning it. I’m getting rid of it with no remorse and I don’t see another MINI or BMW in my future at any point.
I’ve learned that:
When a Mini dealer says something is caused by ‘bad gas’ that what they actually mean is “we think you are an idiot and you’ll believe this”.
When a Mini dealer says it is a “normal noise” that they actually mean, you guessed it, “we think you are an idiot and you’ll believe this”. (If my technically advanced Mini/Bmw sounds like it has a bag of rocks bouncing around in the engine when it starts up then I, for one, really don’t want a Mini or a BMW!)
When your Mini dealer says “we can’t replicate the noise” It means either “you are lying” or “we really don’t want to hear about it unless it breaks and we have to do something. Maybe it will hang in there until your warranty expires.” However when you do bring it in after the warranty has expired and they can hear the sound then they look at you like an idiot for continuing to drive something that sounds so bad. Even when you tell them that the noise is still intermittent and it was totally quiet on the way in they react in a way that lets you know, you guessed it, “you are lying”.
If you are having the death rattle and you are still under warranty you need to “***** your head off” to get it fixed under warranty. Apparently being very assertive multiple times over 3 years just doesn’t do the trick.
The engine death rattle can lead to the timing chain jumping or breaking and then the valves running into the pistons which in turn leads to a repair bill for $8,000 for a new engine. I supposed I would have had to pick up 30% (or 40% if they learn how to do math right. Read the whole story to see what this means). I did not know that death rattle could lead to complete engine failure until very recently when I started reading several forums.
MINI USA really doesn’t give a ****, but apparently some dealers are better than mine.
If you own or are going to buy a Mini or a BMW you need to budget to replace it often enough to keep it under warranty. These cars are not especially reliable (as many independent ratings now show), they are very expensive to fix (you’ve seen your warranty invoices or worse you’ve paid to have the dealer fix something so you know how painful that is), and finally these are fragile cars in the sense that their sophistication leads to one small problem leading to a big one, i.e. the vacuum pump problem can also cause an engine to be destroyed. Also unless you are lucky enough to live close to your dealer you have to deal with long trips for service and the inconvenience of dropping off your car during normal hours if you want a loaner. Once you are out of warranty then of course you have no loaner. So in my case I’ve been without my MINI this time for 2 weeks due to waiting to get in for service and then it taking the dealer an inordinate amount of time to fix it even though they didn’t need to order parts. This inconvenience turned out to be a much greater irritation than I expected when I bought the car. Of course one reason for this was that the Mini had to go back to the dealer multiple times under warranty where the last two new cars I bought only when back to dealer for warranty work one time EACH. I kept my 99 Isuzu Trooper for 160,000 miles and the only non-maintenance items it has needed were a radiator at over 120,000 and a starter at 150,000. At that kind of mileage and age of over 10 years even those could be viewed as maintenance. I still own my 2004 Chevy Tracker (Suzuki Grand Vitara) with 103,000 miles. I had to replace the alternator at about 95,000.
Since MINI won’t even admit to the death rattle problem they cannot really come out and advertise that the problem is fixed for current models. In my review of various forums I only see reports for 07, 08, 09, and 10. However the 11’s and 12’s may simply not have enough miles on them to have had this problem yet. There are also forums for other brands that use this engine in Europe and there are lots of reports of the death rattle there too. Since I haven’t read every post on every forum there may be reports from 11 and 12 models. Therefore I’m relatively certain the death rattle is still a concern.
I had test driven an 11 MCS to see what more horsepower felt like and especially to try out the electronic limited slip. The electronic limited slip eliminated torque steer and made the MCS more like the first generation, which is a good thing. However, even now if I could resign myself to buying a new car every four years (I usually keep mine 8 to 10 years) I wouldn’t get a MINI or BMW knowing what I know now.
So here’s the story:
Thought I’d post this so others could decide what to do. I have a 07 MCS that I purchased in March of 2007. The timing chain tensioner completely failed at 20,000 with no warning in June of 08. There were no morning rattles or anything. I just driving the car, came down from speed to idle and the engine sounded like a bag of rocks. If I ran the revs up to 3,000 rpms the centrifugal force took up the slack and the engine quieted down except for the light rubbing of the chain on the case. The chain, tensioner, etc. was replaced under warranty.
A few months and a few thousand miles later the dieseling death rattle began. It was very random with no discernable ‘triggers’ as others have found. The outside temperature could be hot or cold. I could park it level in the garage or nose up in the driveway. It could sit a short time or for a week. Nothing seems to make a difference. It rattles on start up whenever it feels like it for varying lengths of time from 30 seconds to a few minutes.
I complained about the noise at every service and even took it into service just for the noise. One time I took it in for just the rattle and left it for several days. At various times we were told that it was “bad gas” and a “normal noise”, but we were always told “that they could not replicate the noise”.
Now, December of 2011, after the car is out of warranty it made the death rattle so loud it trippedf the ‘half yellow engine’ warning so I took it and dropped it off on a Sunday evening.
I called the dealer on Monday morning and asked if they were able to hear the noise. The service adviser said yes, of course it was very loud. I told him it was quiet as could be on the way down. From his reaction he obviously didn’t believe me. He said the replacement of the tensioner/chain would cost $1,550, but he’d call MINI and see if they would do anything.
I told him it had been intermittently rattling for over 3 years and if he looked back at the service records he’d see that we complained about it at every service, took it in specifically just for the noise, and even took it in and left it for several days. I told him I expected MINI to cover EVERYTHING since it should have been replaced under warranty at one of the many times we complained. I should note here that after not hearing from the service adviser I had to call him back to see what they had found out.
The next day at 5:30, after I had left work, the service advisor called and left a message to let me know that MINI would cover 40%, the dealer would cover 20%, and I was to pick up 30%. I listened to it twice to make sure I was hearing it right since you will note that the numbers only add up to 90%. (Apparently that can’t even do that right).
I called back the next day and before I could say anything the service adviser said he knew the numbers he had given me didn’t add up to 100%, but that I’d only have to cover 30% (very smart move on his part) and that also the work would be at warranty rate so that the total would be much less than $1,550.
So I had to wait nearly a week until I could take the car in, they had it beginning on a Monday, had the parts in stock and promised it for Wednesday. Late Wednesday they called to say they could not have it done, but were pretty sure they could have it done on Thursday. I told them it was OK if they finished Friday because I couldn’t get all the way to the dealer until Saturday. Of course they called late Friday to let me know that it wouldn’t be ready until Monday and “was that OK”. I replied that “I really don’t have any choice do I?”
Hopefully it is done tomorrow.
Hopefully it doesn’t rattle anymore.
Hopefully someone else owns it when the latest tensioner/chain wears out.
Hopefully ‘someone’ can get MINI to fix it again.

[foxy_boarder]

Another post to this mahoosive thread!

I bought a 57 plate R56 in the summer, had driven it for about 4000 miles and in that time had put in a litre of oil (but have never been able to read the level on the dipstick). Anyway, a few weeks ago at the same time as it began to get colder in the UK my engine started the dreaded rattle when cold. I need to book it in for a brake fluid change so asked them to have a looked at the timing tensioner and also my oil level as I was concerned I couldn’t see the level and didn’t want to over-oil it. Anyway, they check the oil and said it needed THREE litres, not sure it was that dry (I hope not) but in any case it must have been very low. Anyway, they topped it up and for the past 4 weeks it has been completely silent, right from start up, yay! Anyway, thought I would post this in case it helps someone.

Oh and the brake fluid change and three litres of oil came to £98 which I was pleased with.

[Tara&Paul]

I bought a brand new R56 Cooper S back in October 2007 and it turned out to be a very disappointing experience.

To start with, it over-heated two days after I bought it. It then went on to be a 35 month long nightmare. I don't want to bore you all with the details, but I'm sure you all know about the catalogue of serious problems with the R56 Cooper S. And every time I went back to Specialist Cars in Tring with a problem, they were less than helpful.

So one month before the warranty expired, I got rid of it. I didn't want to be paying out for a new engine every time the timing chain snapped.

I loved driving the S, but hated owning it.

And I cannot believe that any one would buy a Cooper S now, after they have read the information on this website!

Happy Motoring Mini Owners!

[Nezquick]

Update on mine. Took my 2007 MCS to Bowker Preston yesterday. They asked me to leave it with them so they could recreate the sound. This morning, they managed to do that an advised that it needed a new timing chain tensioner guide. 6 hours work and was told this should fix the problem "permanently". We shall see. All covered under warranty though so no charge.

[Poprin]

I've had my chain and tensioners replaced under warranty also. I bought my November build R56 Cooper S second hand from Mini with 32k on the clock. It started rattling very soon after purchase and I had the chain and tensioners done at about 40k. Just hit 52k and it's been fine so far.

A note about oil, I do a fair amount of miles and my car has used 8 litres of oil since I bought it which is almost exactly 20k miles. Which is the service interval on a Mini. So if you are the kind of person (which with the general reliability of modern cars there is no issue with this) that never opens the bonnet on their car (or worse still my mum who when the car makes a 'funny noise' she turns the radio up!) by the time your Cooper S is due a service your car will have exploded into a ball of flames!

I would like to add, I love my Mini it's fantastic to drive. The service I have received from my dealer has been top notch and I can not fault them. BUT I am shocked at the build quality and reliability of my car which at the price I paid for it I could of had my pick of a number of other cars possibly even a brand new one. A powerful brand name and a big price tag does not mean you are getting the best small car out there. Not by a long shot. You are buying into the look, the prestige and the scene. If you love Mini's that's great but if you want a small car and you think a Mini is 'cool' buy something else!

[Nezquick]

Another update. Whilst stripping down the engine to replace the timing chain tensioner guide, Bowker BMW noticed that there was pitting on the camshaft lobes. They have now gone back to BMW to see if they can also replace these under the warranty at the same time.

This seems odd to me for a car with 21k on the clock.

Can anybody tell me why cam shafs should show signs of pitting? Is this due to sticking valves? Could it also need a de-coke?

[Claires'Mini]

Sounds like a tractor, not a car....Did u find out what it was?

[samuir1974]

My car (MCS '07) was with the dealer all week - last week. Was originally in for the high pressure fuel pump; but i asked them to look into the cold start rattle. After 3 days - it did it for them and they are pushing BMW-UK for some goodwill - but it is slow going and BAD SERVICE from BMW.

Now had the loan car for 1 week and no confirmation if they will pay for the work. The dealer have been great for now (JCT-600 in Bradford)..... but the Corporate responses from head office are shocking.....

I will post up the last email shortly.

[samuir1974]

Please see below....MINI-UK in response to the PUMA 10686850-16 issue with my car - what a load of tripe...... latest "nothing" response.... when the approved dealer say they are waiting on MINI-UK, and MINI-UK claim to need further info from the dealer....

~~~~~

Thank you for your further email dated March 9, 2012. I am sorry that you have had cause to contact us on this occasion. MINI take great pride in the build quality of all our vehicles and it is always concerning to receive correspondence of this nature. I completely understand your disappointment and concern over the future reliability of your vehicle and I can appreciate that your experiences to date have caused you to feel this way.

Although we are confident in the design and manufacture of our vehicles, we appreciate that due to their electrical and mechanical nature, occasionally components can fail unexpectedly. It is for this reason that we supply all our new vehicles with a comprehensive three year Dealer Warranty with the option to purchase an Insured Warranty Policy before it expires. These policies are in place to protect our customers in the event of a manufacturing related fault. I can appreciate that you would not expect such components in your vehicle to fail and it is of course disappointing that this has happened. However, this is the reason we encourage customers to maintain the warranty on their vehicles as a safety net to protect them against the unexpected.

MINI Customer Support are not in a position to offer a contribution towards the cost of repair, this is investigated by your preferred MINI Approved Dealership. However, I can confirm that various factors will be taken into consideration such as the vehicle's age, mileage, purchase and service history. When there is no warranty policy in force, we are under no obligation to assist with any repair costs. Each case is assessed individually and is at the discretion of the dealership involved.

MINI collate failure reports and part orders to determine whether there is a problem with a specific part. I can confirm that I have consulted our records and the issue you detailed has not been outlined as a common fault. Where a recognisable trend of failure is present, we would issue a retroactive technical programme to rectify the fault. I have logged the details of your complaint under case reference number 1-xxxxxxxxxx for use in our ongoing product auditing programme. I can confirm that there are no outstanding technical campaigns for your vehicle.

I also understand that through your own independent research you have come across similar faults online. Whilst I appreciate that the Internet is a useful tool, it is an unregulated medium and it can prove to be an unreliable source of information, particularly for faults and complaints. I appreciate that you feel that a technical bulletin is used to record inherent faults, however, I assure you that this is not the case. I can confirm that these are used to communicate information to our network of MINI Approved Dealerships and aid them in repairs. Therefore, PUMA cases are not indicative of common faults.

I trust that this information assists you in progressing this matter and I can assure you that your case will be considered should you approach your local MINI Approved Dealership.

Yours sincerely

MINI UK

~~~~~

Comments welcome - good or bad.... i'm seriously not impressed!