The infamous death rattle - ongoing issue

[Eversir]

Hi guys, first post on the forum - have been lurking for a while now.

I'll try and keep this concise and to the point:

2nd August 2010:

Purchased brand new Mini Cooper S (2010) from showroom

6th August 2010:

Less than a week after purchase, noticed a loud clacking/tapping sound from engine bay.

August 2010:

Took car back to dealer. Was told sound is normal for the car. Wasn't happy- did research on the web and youtube videos. Sounded like the "death rattle" issue.

August 2010:

Took car back to dealer for 2nd time. Presented all information relating to the death rattle issue, particular note to timing chain. Dealer said was a known issue on the R56 engine but as my car did not have the R56 engine, it couldn't be the same fault. Said they would strip car down anyway and see if they could find anything.

August 2010:

Call from dealer - valvetronic springs were loose, had been tightened and noise has reduced somewhat. Was quieter but by no means quiet. Handed the "normal for these cars" excuse. Sent on my merry way.

October 2010:

Freind of freind purchased brand new Mini Cooper S Convertible (2010). Didn't have the same sound on the engine - much quieter. Approached dealer again - head technician spoke to me this time and explained the engines were "stratisfied charge engines" - therefore made more sound than a usual petrol engine. Wasn't happy, but didn't feel much more could be done.

20th August 2011:

Engine had steadily been sounding worse. On a couple of occasions whilst idling the rev counter had been fluctuating between ~600 to ~1000. Engine was not from cold start on these occasions. Car stalled randomly on one occasion and then restarted automatically. Was due for servicing anyway, so took car back to dealer.

Overheard another customer detailing same problem (but much worse) whilst waiting at service desk. Raised issue - told they would check it over but nothing was found. Told to bring it back if it happened again.

4th October 2011:

Five minutes into journey solid amber engine warning light came on. Was less than a mile away from dealer at that point so just took it straight in. Problem was noted though no free appointment for a few days. Told was still safe to drive, just to keep an eye on engine light in case it turned red.

5th October 2011:

Noticed sloshing sound from engine bay (no rainfall for a few days). Opened bonnet - coolant EVERYWHERE and changed colour from aqua blue to a muddy green. Servicing assured me that there was no danger in driving car and to bring it in as scheduled a few days later. Later in day, fluctating revs, random stalling at idle, power loss and shuddering whilst driving. Engine light then went out.

6th October 2011:

Very loud rattling sound from engine bay whilst driving from work (like when a chain slips on a push bike).

7th October 2011:

Car booked in to dealership. Mentioned all the problems I'd been having to head of servicing. Was told that they would look at it but unfortunately they had no replacement vehicle until the following week. Was told it could be driven safely over the next few days until a replacement car was available.

8th October 2011:

Car won't start properly. Ignition but engine doesn't quite turn over. Gas pedal unresponsive - revs stuck between 200 and 500. Chucking out thick black smoke from exhaust. Car has to be recovered.

Phone call a few days later saying problem had been fixed - faulty temperature sensor. Raised concern over long term damage to the engine, was told it was fine but they would extend my warranty by a year for peace of mind.

4th January 2012:

Noticing problems with power loss, cooling fan is on 100% of the time, and increased difficulty starting. Booked in for the following day as no replacement vehicle was available.

5th January 2012:

Car wouldn't start. No ignition as such although it "caught" for barely a second at one point. Recovery guy sent out, sods law it starts up for him first time. Brings it in anyway.

6th January 2012:

Voicemail left from dealer. Starting problem from car caused by faulty temperature sensor (again). Rattling engine sound "could possibly be from viscous coupling from the water pump". Will get back in touch after weekend.

9th January 2012:

Voicemail left from dealer. Admits "for a few seconds there was a noise that possibly shouldn't be there" and "they're going to take the rocker cover off to look inside at the tensioner, cam shaft, etc." Will keep me informed.

10th January 2012:

Voicemail left from dealer. Car has been repaired and is awaiting collection. On speaking to dealer, was told that they have done a software update as there was a problem with the tensioners and engine timings. Was told that this has resolved the issue and the engine sounds completely different to what it did. Will be collecting the car from the dealer tomorrow.


Ok, well sorry for the massive list but hopefully that information will prove useful to anyone suffering from the same problems. My main concern at the moment is a) potential long term damage to the car and b) am I being spoon-fed a load of bull from the dealer (my spidey-sense is tingling).

The past 18 months have been a complete nightmare. I rely on my car for my business (self employed computer technician) and this disruption is costing me time and money - as well as my sanity. Can anyone shed some more light on this? Handily I have a several video clips of these issues, I just need to find some way of getting them up on the net.

[Rocco9999]

Might help you:

http://www.mini2.com/forum/second-ge...-your-car.html

and if you've got a spare month to read it:
http://www.mini2.com/forum/second-ge...when-cold.html

[Eversir]

Thanks Rocco, those are both great threads and I have been following them both since last year.

My main concern is I'm due to collect the car tomorrow, and the fact I don't think what they've told me is true:

On speaking to dealer, was told that they "have done a software update as there was a problem with the tensioners and engine timings". Was told that this "has resolved the issue and the engine sounds completely different to what it did".

The problem is I don't have enough technical experience with engines to know:

a) If this is even possible or correct
b) If it is true, are they just masking a problem
c) Is there a good chance this has done long-term damage to my engine

[alexcannas]

I don't think the software update makes the noise go away or that sort... But BMW tells them to do the update if the rattle problem occurs (in addition to changing the parts) so they do it.

The most common "cold start rattle" has to do with insufficient tension in the timing chain. The cause can either be a lengthened chain or the tensioner depleting its oil reserve (it refills due to oil pressure on startup).

However, apart from the car being a little rough on cold start, you shouldn't be getting any CELs. And this problem is supposed to be extant on N18 engines. I tend to believe your high-pressure fuel pump is at fault here, rather than the chain.

[Eversir]

Just a little update:

Picked the car up little more than 2 hours ago. Still sounds like a bag of rocks, but as the head technician has told me again and again - this is apparently normal for a £24,000 performance vehicle (ha!).

They've tried blaming it on all sorts of things - water pump, oil pump, turbo - all apparently within working specification but just noisy components (uh huh).

Secondly, I noticed the coolant level was nearly empty (it was on the max line when it went in). Pointed this out to the technician and the fact there was coolant splashed around everywhere. He promptly apologised and said it wasn't leaking, just the previous technician must have forgotten to fill it up. Good attention to detail there Mini - it was the first thing I spotted when the bonnet came up.

The ECU update has made little, if no, improvement to the sound whatsoever. If anything, it's probably made things worse as it is now guzzling a ton of fuel and the exhaust is back firing every time I decelerate (it did this occasionally before but not this bad). Whether this is harmful to the car or not I have no idea, but I suspect it's not burning fuel properly.

They were, however, quite happy to offer me new front brake pads (due in 1000 miles) for the megre sum of £165. Bit miffed the "free" servicing and "TLC" package doesn't cover this.

Well and truely fed-up with this car - it's brought me nothing but stress for the past 18 months.

[Cooper S Jon]

Quote: Originally Posted by Eversir (original)

the exhaust is back firing every time I decelerate (it did this occasionally before but not this bad).

it's called over-run(pops,burbles & bangs),one reason why people buy the S..

why i bought one..

[dsakko]

OMG I think you should vote that dealer as #1 ****** of the year. Seriously. Their reasoning is so far out the window...

- an R56 doesn't have an R56 engine... what does it run on, gerbils in a wheel??
- the enging light never turns red. How many pieces of shrapnel do you wawnt bouncing around the engine bay before you admit theres a problem? (minor faults don't display any warning but appear when you read engine codes. Major faults that are likely to cause damage cause the yellow light)
- how on earth does a SOFTWARE update fix the timing chain tensioner?
- and what mechanic on the planet says everything's fine when you have oil in the coolant?

I hope someone whips them for what they've done to you So sorry to hear.

[Rocco9999]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cooper S Jon (original)

it's called over-run(pops,burbles & bangs),one reason why people buy the S..

why i bought one..

Very true!
This is an important feature and not an NVH issue on the vehicle...

[richyboy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocco9999 (original)

Very true!
This is an important feature and not an NVH issue on the vehicle...

God help us keep the pops and bangs, why can't people realise it's part of the experience.

[85NIXMIN]

Sounds like you are going through what I went through this time last year... needless to say I ended up trading mine in to get away from the constant headaches! I only had my 07 MCS for 8 months!!!

[STU56]

Quote: Originally Posted by Eversir (original)

Hi guys, first post on the forum - have been lurking for a while now.

I'll try and keep this concise and to the point:

2nd August 2010:

Purchased brand new Mini Cooper S (2010) from showroom

6th August 2010:

Less than a week after purchase, noticed a loud clacking/tapping sound from engine bay.

August 2010:

Took car back to dealer. Was told sound is normal for the car. Wasn't happy- did research on the web and youtube videos. Sounded like the "death rattle" issue.

August 2010:

Took car back to dealer for 2nd time. Presented all information relating to the death rattle issue, particular note to timing chain. Dealer said was a known issue on the R56 engine but as my car did not have the R56 engine, it couldn't be the same fault. Said they would strip car down anyway and see if they could find anything.

August 2010:

Call from dealer - valvetronic springs were loose, had been tightened and noise has reduced somewhat. Was quieter but by no means quiet. Handed the "normal for these cars" excuse. Sent on my merry way.

October 2010:

Freind of freind purchased brand new Mini Cooper S Convertible (2010). Didn't have the same sound on the engine - much quieter. Approached dealer again - head technician spoke to me this time and explained the engines were "stratisfied charge engines" - therefore made more sound than a usual petrol engine. Wasn't happy, but didn't feel much more could be done.

20th August 2011:

Engine had steadily been sounding worse. On a couple of occasions whilst idling the rev counter had been fluctuating between ~600 to ~1000. Engine was not from cold start on these occasions. Car stalled randomly on one occasion and then restarted automatically. Was due for servicing anyway, so took car back to dealer.

Overheard another customer detailing same problem (but much worse) whilst waiting at service desk. Raised issue - told they would check it over but nothing was found. Told to bring it back if it happened again.

4th October 2011:

Five minutes into journey solid amber engine warning light came on. Was less than a mile away from dealer at that point so just took it straight in. Problem was noted though no free appointment for a few days. Told was still safe to drive, just to keep an eye on engine light in case it turned red.

5th October 2011:

Noticed sloshing sound from engine bay (no rainfall for a few days). Opened bonnet - coolant EVERYWHERE and changed colour from aqua blue to a muddy green. Servicing assured me that there was no danger in driving car and to bring it in as scheduled a few days later. Later in day, fluctating revs, random stalling at idle, power loss and shuddering whilst driving. Engine light then went out.

6th October 2011:

Very loud rattling sound from engine bay whilst driving from work (like when a chain slips on a push bike).

7th October 2011:

Car booked in to dealership. Mentioned all the problems I'd been having to head of servicing. Was told that they would look at it but unfortunately they had no replacement vehicle until the following week. Was told it could be driven safely over the next few days until a replacement car was available.

8th October 2011:

Car won't start properly. Ignition but engine doesn't quite turn over. Gas pedal unresponsive - revs stuck between 200 and 500. Chucking out thick black smoke from exhaust. Car has to be recovered.

Phone call a few days later saying problem had been fixed - faulty temperature sensor. Raised concern over long term damage to the engine, was told it was fine but they would extend my warranty by a year for peace of mind.

4th January 2012:

Noticing problems with power loss, cooling fan is on 100% of the time, and increased difficulty starting. Booked in for the following day as no replacement vehicle was available.

5th January 2012:

Car wouldn't start. No ignition as such although it "caught" for barely a second at one point. Recovery guy sent out, sods law it starts up for him first time. Brings it in anyway.

6th January 2012:

Voicemail left from dealer. Starting problem from car caused by faulty temperature sensor (again). Rattling engine sound "could possibly be from viscous coupling from the water pump". Will get back in touch after weekend.

9th January 2012:

Voicemail left from dealer. Admits "for a few seconds there was a noise that possibly shouldn't be there" and "they're going to take the rocker cover off to look inside at the tensioner, cam shaft, etc." Will keep me informed.

10th January 2012:

Voicemail left from dealer. Car has been repaired and is awaiting collection. On speaking to dealer, was told that they have done a software update as there was a problem with the tensioners and engine timings. Was told that this has resolved the issue and the engine sounds completely different to what it did. Will be collecting the car from the dealer tomorrow.


Ok, well sorry for the massive list but hopefully that information will prove useful to anyone suffering from the same problems. My main concern at the moment is a) potential long term damage to the car and b) am I being spoon-fed a load of bull from the dealer (my spidey-sense is tingling).

The past 18 months have been a complete nightmare. I rely on my car for my business (self employed computer technician) and this disruption is costing me time and money - as well as my sanity. Can anyone shed some more light on this? Handily I have a several video clips of these issues, I just need to find some way of getting them up on the net.

My dealer never cured my death rattle after 3 new chains etc. sold it for new fiesta zetec s. Had 4 previous minis all had problems. Buy a mini,expect trouble.my fiesta may not be as fast as the s but handles just as well if not better and is a proper class act.It's 18 months old and never seen a dealer. Take the blinkers of and move on. cooper s John states he would rather push his mini than drive a ford, problem is he probably is pushing his mini to a mini dealer Ford 10k cheaper but 10 times better

[dsakko]

You can always have trouble. My sister bought a brand new Focus about a month ago and nothing but trouble. Broke down on her and left her stranded on the drive home from picking it up. Trailered back to the stealership on a truck and no spare parts for them in Oz. They had to cannibalise their demo model to get her going.

Brand new car. Dead after 20km. Second hand parts used to repair it. Awesome.

I figure the more I know through forums like this the more I can get my hands dirty and fix these problems for myself. My 02 Coop had 4 blown gearboxes, left hand pull, problems with the interior, problems with leaky coolant everywhere, dead power steering, dead power steering fan etc. Learn, fix properly, was a BRILLIANT little car when I was done with it.

[Eversir]

Just a follow up to my original post - thank you for all the responses everyone.

It's got to the point where I'm beginning to take legal action against the dealership for selling me a car which was not fit for purpose.

We had an independant engineer take a look at the car and he immediately discovered a misfire on the cylinder(s), which he strongly suspects is due to a timing issue. Again, just to reiterate: the "popping" I am experiencing is NOT the usual "burble" I had before with the engine. These are extremely loud bangs that at times shake the car. On a couple of occasions after dropping freinds off they have commented on a small amount of flame coming from the exhaust pipe. The engineer also commented on the severity of these noises and is adament there is a serious problem with the engine. He comes highly recommended from family, so I know he isn't BS'ing on that aspect.

I'll keep this updated when I get more information.

[Rocco9999]

Quote: Originally Posted by Eversir (original)

On a couple of occasions after dropping freinds off they have commented on a small amount of flame coming from the exhaust pipe.

Cool!

[Clifford clubman]

I've just been reading your horror story, I really hope you get it sorted soon.