Heel and toe help wanted.

[edzmini]

The R56 brake is so sensitive that whenever I attempt a heel and toe, the car goes jerky-jerky. What's the trick if there is one? I have only 200 miles on it so far and maybe I need lots of practice.
Thanks.

[caesar]

Once you get a few more hundred miles on the clock, then the brakes become less sensitive. I would suggest giving them a bit longer to bed-in and start practising then.

[AJKries]

I have the same complaint about the brakes and now with 800 miles on the clock the problem remains. A smooth heel and toe downshift is impossible for me. Are alternate pads available?

[medilloni]

Found the same problem myself - though by changing my style a wee bit it helped.......

Some take their foot (heel) off the floor, using the ball of their foot for the brake, the side or flat of the foot for the accelerator, which I used to do.

I now find it easy and comfortable to lower my seat a little (so you're attacking the pedals straight on as opposed to 'from the top'), keep your heel on the floor, use the ball of the foot for braking and the side of the foot for the gas pedal. With the sport button 'on', the power is availlable nearer the top of the pedal travel so there's very little movement and ankle-bending involved to hit the right revs. It's now nice and smooth and didn't take too long to get used to - the heel planted on the floor really helps to keep it all smooth.

Hope this helps.

By the way, my feet are a size9 - I pity those with bigger plates!

[stuvoi]

Cor that sounded very complicated.

I'll have to train some mice to operate the pedals for me - my feet are bigger than a 9

[madadd]

Quote: Originally Posted by medilloni (original)

Found the same problem myself - though by changing my style a wee bit it helped.......

Some take their foot (heel) off the floor, using the ball of their foot for the brake, the side or flat of the foot for the accelerator, which I used to do.

I now find it easy and comfortable to lower my seat a little (so you're attacking the pedals straight on as opposed to 'from the top'), keep your heel on the floor, use the ball of the foot for braking and the side of the foot for the gas pedal. With the sport button 'on', the power is availlable nearer the top of the pedal travel so there's very little movement and ankle-bending involved to hit the right revs. It's now nice and smooth and didn't take too long to get used to - the heel planted on the floor really helps to keep it all smooth.

Hope this helps.

By the way, my feet are a size9 - I pity those with bigger plates!

My heel is always in the air. I think the most important bit of the whole process (excluding me) is the shoes that I am wearing. Considering you are only just on the brake pedal, some shoes are downright dangerous! (If you are using heel and toe in anger!)

What I cant understand is when I have seen drivers actually using their heel and toe. Heel on accelerator and toe on brake. I have never found a car with pedals angled to make this possible!
Maybe its just me! It looks easy on film, but doesnt make sense when I have tried it myself. (not that the sides of my feet cause me a problem!)

...Mad

[iain cooper]

you guys seem to going to a lot of trouble to achieve this style of driving.

what's the benefit ? and should I be trying to do it ?

[newyorkaddict]

i learned heel-toe in my works van it is all about practice, but when you get it sorted, you find some short little blast journeys, can be done in a lot quicker time sacrificing a bit of extra fuel in the mean time though. one journey i have found this good on is on a back road from where i live South Molton, Devon to Tiverton, Devon, going through a place called Rackenford (just in case anyone wants to see it on a map) its a lovely bit of road, almost made with Cooper S's in mind. I have noticed heel-toeing it i can go 3 minutes quicker then my Civic Type R using the same method.

[Arnbut]

Quote: Originally Posted by iain cooper (original)

you guys seem to going to a lot of trouble to achieve this style of driving.
what's the benefit ? and should I be trying to do it ?

Since track activities basically come down to two actions, floor-it and brake, minimizing the transition times between the two can shave valuable time off your laps.
Go in hot, brake at the last second, get back on the gas-gas-gas-gas-gas-gas, brake, gas-gas-gas, etc.
If you're very good at it, you can save a quarter second or better at times per transition. But, mind you, only if you're good. If you're not good, the lap feels faster (because of the difficulty doing the maneuver) but your time will be slower.
Our classroom instructor the other day used to race in NASCR circles. His method was more of a rolling action with his very big shoe --- worked well in his Corvette.
My attempts at this with a size 14 shoe were, ummm, comical at best.

[iain cooper]

thanks guys, is this a similar concept to "left foot braking" and if so what is the best ?

[medilloni]

Quote: Originally Posted by iain cooper (original)

thanks guys, is this a similar concept to "left foot braking" and if so what is the best ?

which is the best doesn't really apply Iain, as Arnbut says, heel and toeing is to make the downshift smoother and faster - left foot braking is really a cornering technique, or used to create/uncreate stability in bends. (Well, you can combine the two, but for simplicity's sake.......)

Left foot braking is the (sometimes black!) art of using the brake with your left foot whilst still using the power with your right foot - this can be used to help bring the back end of the car round if the front is running wide - so power is being transmitted to the front wheels and the rears should lose some grip due to the brake being applied.

Done well it can help to stabilise an unsteady car on very high speed bends, or maybe help to swing the rear of the car around bends on loose surfaces, such as snow, dirt, leaves and families of dead hedgehogs. It has also been known for it impress some young girlies and people-that-wear-baseball-caps-that -point-to-the-sky-and-say-'whatever'-a-lot.

Truth of the matter is, it's:
a) Difficult to learn safely on public roads. Don't do it
b) Likely to go through a set of brake pads in no time, discs in less time, tyres even less time - and underpants are usually soiled within 1.8 seconds.

Seriously, it's hardly likely to be useful in road driving situations - but great fun to learn, why not try a day at a Rally School? It's cheaper in the long run!

Cheers,

John

[3rdpillar]

Quote: Originally Posted by medilloni (original)

Truth of the matter is, it's:
a) Difficult to learn safely on public roads. Don't do it

Sentiments echoed

[robturkey]

buy an auto then you can left foot break all the time its how people like Russel Brooks and Jimmy McRae learnt as it was not usual for UK drivers of the time (sorry showing my age!)

[thrud]

As a related alternative to heel and toe, I use sustained revs at each downshift to provide a smooth changedown. That is I brake, then move to the accelerator briefly before letting the gear back in. This is more suited to general driving when you have more time to move your foot between pedals rather than true hell and toe'ing. Just provides smoothness rather than the potential for quicker times.

Paul

[Arnbut]

One of the many things you'll pick up at a track school is that there's different ways to induce a bit of oversteer. If your apex was a bit dodgey, sometimes a momentary let-up on the throttle will correct the rear end for more turn-in.
I like to do this on very wide (deserted) on-ramps, especially in the rain. Wicked fun...

Like thrud said though, smooth is good. Get smooth laps first until smooth is second nature. Smooth begets fast, fast begets clever, clever begets really fast.