Opinions on DSC for Cooper S

[Professor Peach]

Quote: Originally Posted by tommo13 (original)

I don't think it needs it really. My other half has it on her Cooper S and I don't on mine and to be honest I prefer driving mine, I find the bloody things always interfering when your pressing on so you end up turning it off.

With respect, if you're driving a car so fast on public roads that the DSC is kicking in regularly (or even occasionally), then surely you're driving too fast? For DSC to be engaging it must sense that you're on the edge of a slide and is helping you keep straight, and if that's the case you've absolutely nothing left in reserve for a bit of gravel on the road or a bit of spilt diesel or whatever.

If you're talking about track driving that's different of course, and the whole point of track driving is to be able to push the limits in safety. But on the road with oncoming traffic, I can't see you should ever be so far on the edge that the DSC is having to engage unless it's an unexpected emergancy such as has been described by a couple of people above.

[Professor Peach]

Oh, and just to confirm what's already been said, I was also told that DSC is now standard (or I suppose more accurately, they're making you pay for it!)

I think that's a good thing on any car, and especially on a high performance car like the MCS. I'd actually specced it anyway before I found it was now standard.

Lets face it, if it saves your life just once it's not just worth £350, it's worth absolutely everything you own.

[Tommo]

Thanks Professor,
You don't have to be traveling to quickly to be using small amount of slide to direct the car that's the reason I bought a well balanced sports car with direct steering ?
Also by your premise if you need to be traveling too quickly to have the DSC engage then why bother having it at all for public road use ? And as I pointed out in my last post a good driver should not get into a position of an unexpected emergency.
As for the fitting as standard and adding me £350 to the price of the car I'd rather have the choice !
If your happy with DSC and think you need it fitted then your probably better of with it. I'm not saying it's a bad system far from it, just offering a balanced opinion as to wether or not it actually needs it ?

[caesar]

An interesting discussion, perhaps somebody could explain something: -

When I ordered my MCS in June 07 I was not aware of DSC, and the Dealer did not mention it. But I knew about LSD so ordered that.

Consequently the car has ASC + LSD. What is the difference between ASC and DSC
I would assume ASC = Automatic Stability Control as opposed to Dynamic.

[FergusM]

Quote: Originally Posted by tommo13 (original)

Thanks Professor,
You don't have to be traveling to quickly to be using small amount of slide to direct the car that's the reason I bought a well balanced sports car with direct steering ?
Also by your premise if you need to be traveling too quickly to have the DSC engage then why bother having it at all for public road use ? And as I pointed out in my last post a good driver should not get into a position of an unexpected emergency.
As for the fitting as standard and adding me £350 to the price of the car I'd rather have the choice !
If your happy with DSC and think you need it fitted then your probably better of with it. I'm not saying it's a bad system far from it, just offering a balanced opinion as to wether or not it actually needs it ?

Another way to look at it is that it is better that all cars have it as it will save all the non- "good drivers", like myself , that can't see what is going to happen round each corner, and can't tell what corners will have ice, diesel etc.. and it saves me hitting good drivers like yourself that can tell everything.

By the word the "unexpected " bit in unexpected emergency generally tells you when people need it..

[Fin]

Quote: Originally Posted by caesar (original)

An interesting discussion, perhaps somebody could explain something: -

When I ordered my MCS in June 07 I was not aware of DSC, and the Dealer did not mention it. But I knew about LSD so ordered that.

Consequently the car has ASC + LSD. What is the difference between ASC and DSC
I would assume ASC = Automatic Stability Control as opposed to Dynamic.

ASC controls the torque applied to the front wheels during loss of traction. DSC is able to apply the brakes on all four wheels when the system detects any lateral acceleration (ie oversteer/understeer). DSC is not seperate to ASC, it is an extension of it, ie if you have DSC you have ASC too.

Personally I am all for DSC being standard on cars.

[Professor Peach]

Quote: Originally Posted by tommo13 (original)

Thanks Professor,
You don't have to be traveling to quickly to be using small amount of slide to direct the car that's the reason I bought a well balanced sports car with direct steering ?
Also by your premise if you need to be traveling too quickly to have the DSC engage then why bother having it at all for public road use ? And as I pointed out in my last post a good driver should not get into a position of an unexpected emergency.
As for the fitting as standard and adding me £350 to the price of the car I'd rather have the choice !
If your happy with DSC and think you need it fitted then your probably better of with it. I'm not saying it's a bad system far from it, just offering a balanced opinion as to wether or not it actually needs it ?

Some fair comments there. However there is no doubt that DSC can do things that not even the best driver can do (ie brake individual wheels to help stabilize the car) and unforseen emergancy situations do happen. No matter how good you think you are, you can't always allow for all the other idiots out there, and occasionally you just need all the help you can get.

Personally I think DSC is a no brainer.

[Tommo]

Firstly let me reiterate once again I'm not anti DSC I do think it's a very good system and I know it will help in situations that most if not all drivers would struggle with. I'm also playing devils advocate a little bit but I do feel with good reason in this case.

The original question was wether or not a cooper S "needs" DSC and so far all I've asked is does it actually need it on a small very well balanced sports car being driven at speeds relevant to everyday driving on public roads ?

Older hot hatches like Peugot's 205 gti, which where quite well known for being a little tricky on the limit didn't have any form of stability control and although quite a few probably ended up as part of the scenery lots didn't. It was also well regarded as being one of the purest hot hatches ever made and a benchmark for feel and handling. I wonder as more and more electronic systems are bolted onto the mini if this is the reason for people complaining of the cars lack of feel compared to the old one etc ?

Would most of the situations mentioned throughout this thread not be rescued by the ASC+T or as mentioned a little more forward planning ?

I've seen from a few other threads that your convinced of DSC's worth Fergus but so far I've not seen a convincing argument for it's inclusion and in the post above just sarcasm ? Why is it do you think that Police Traffic Officers spend so much time learning to anticipate road conditions in the roadcraft system of which the central tenet is -
The fundamental aim of advanced driving is to utilize observations, anticipation and planning, to allow a driver to have adequate time to deal with any situation that might arise. This is applicable not only to genuinely good drivers, travelling within the relevant legal speed limits, but also to emergency personnel driving at very high speeds."

Have most drivers ever completed any form of advanced driver training ? I'm not questioning peoples driving ability in any way, just wondering what level of training beyond the basic lessons to pass the test most of us have undertaken ?

As I said in a previous post my worry is that for a lot of drivers DSC is seen as a safety net. I.e. when things go pear shaped DSC will save me, but while in many situations it may well do, it won't overcome simple physics and it can't steer for you etc. Wouldn't it be better to have had some type of training to - 1. Anticipate potential hazards and 2. Have better vehicle control, then if the car does get into a slide etc most drivers won't be experiencing the sensation for the first time in a situation where it really matters ?

I don't think I'm the best driver in the world, far from it and I'm happy to admit I'm always learning. I agree that there will always be situations that really are unexpected and that there are plenty of other idiots out there. I just wonder if DSC is the best way to combat these situations or if ASC+T and some advanced driver training would be better ? I really am wondering which would be the best method to avoid accidents for the majority of drivers ?

[Tunster]

To be honest tommo13, I guess BMW have made that decision due to the fact the majority of MINI Cooper S customers have added DSC as an extra and keeping it as an extra wouldn't make any sense if they can just add it as a standard. Also, some people may sway to buy it over the normal Cooper as they recognise it has a more advanced safety feature.

I don't think the best drivers in the world will counter-act "sudden unexpected" situations on the road safely. No normal car is an F1/A1 car and sometimes you have to push the car to it's limits to save yourself going into someone or stopping a serious accident. With the extra power of the Cooper S, you may need the DSC to keep you straight rather than skidding across a motorway for example.

I will never let safety features to allow me decrease my ability for driving and it should never. However, for the rare incident, it may save your life and others' lives.

[Tommo]

To be honest Tunster I'm not sure of what half that post means mate, re-read it and let me know what your getting at ?

[FergusM]

Driver training...completely agree is money well spent. I got some and could quickly get more out of my car than before. Advantage is that it transfers from car to car with you.

When I hit black ice the back end went...doubt ASC+T would have caught the back end...the DSC did, or at least appear to, probably I hit a bit without ice and DSC just corrected the direction...certainly helped. I was also going slow enough that the DSC could catch me, I know it can't find grip where there is none, but it can brake wheels individually which is something that no driver can do. It is nice having that extra level of electronics just when you are not expecting something to happen.

Necessary... well we all have our opinion, I like it and spec'd it...and as Mini is spec'ing it as standard now I think there is little to debate.

Best thing is DSC + driver training...and I see no downside in DSC over ASC+T....apart from the cost. Afterall if you don't like it...just switch it off.

[cellularcoffee]

DSC is a must for any car including the Cooper S. It amazes me that anyone would oppose having more safety feature without any drawback. In addition, it is kind of hilarious that someone would purport to have "advanced" driving skills that could overcome computer circuitry. If that's the case, an advanced driver should also ditch the ABS and ASC-T and LSD.

[Tommo]

Quote: Originally Posted by cellularcoffee (original)

DSC is a must for any car including the Cooper S. It amazes me that anyone would oppose having more safety feature without any drawback. In addition, it is kind of hilarious that someone would purport to have "advanced" driving skills that could overcome computer circuitry. If that's the case, an advanced driver should also ditch the ABS and ASC-T and LSD.

You really didn't read the post did you friend ?

Fergus thanks. That's all I was asking really, if it was necessary and if driver training combined with it was better. Agreed that now it's standard it's a moot point, and as you said if your on a circuit it can always be turned off. I was just finding out how may people put faith solely in electronics or electronics and continuous learning

[tcbw]

Quote: Originally Posted by FergusM (original)

Well DSC saved me when I hit ice this winter, corner look 100% ok, went in slowly, and still lost back end...DSC caught it and then I hit a grippy bit and was pointing in correct direction. I would not buy a car without DSC!

I agree about forward planning...but it is great when you you get caught out. I for one am glad it is standard now.

I'm a believer - it saved me from a nasty spin one winter when I was on the way to the hospital with my pregnant wife (and my mind was on other things)...

And I beleive that it will become compulsory within the EU, much like ABS (even though most drivers don't necessarily know hown to use it)

[tgalatis]

Not trying to re-open debate, just wondering if there is anyway to make DSC default to OFF upon starting the vehicle and allowing the driver to turn ON after starting vehicle, if desired? Thanks in advance.