[jlm]

Finally got my rig in my shop for some extended suspension tweaking. For starters, my suspension is stock except for 16" OZ Superleggeras with Toyo T1 tires, Rogue exhaust and intake, BMP lightened flywheel and Quaife.

As we all know, camber is not adjustable without some accessories like adjustable strut tower mounts and adjustable rear control arms; mods I plan to do along with a coil-over swap and sway bar.

FYI, i measured the camber and ride height as she sits, with a driver in the car, 1/3 tank of gas, ready for the track:

FL: .3 deg neg, 5" ride height; FR:.3deg Neg, 5" ride height
RL: 1.5 deg Neg, 5-7/8" ride height; RR: .8 deg Neg, 6" ride height.

(ride height is a relative thing; I measured from the jacking pad lowest point near each wheel to the floor ).

The H&R coilovers just showed up!

Since this is the first seeing.

They are a single spring design (no "tender springs") The front spring coil radius tapers to give a sort of variable rate effect.



some more info:

a 13/16 spark plug socket with a hex will fit the stock shock shaft nut; you turn the hex and put an allen key through the drive square.

the H&R though uses a larger nut: 7/8", not a spark plug size.

height adjustment is via a threaded collar and lock nut; no spanner wrence was provided, but I'll figure that out. Finally, If I can figure out how to post a pic, I'll do it.

Also: my 16 x7 OZ Superleggera wheels have 5.5" offset AND THEY CLEAR THE STRUT BY 1/2"- no wheel spacer needed even thouth the H&R The H&R do not have a "flattened area" on the lower tube for wheel clearance (as the stock units do)

some final measurements for the H&R front coilovers:

stock front spring wire: .550 dia (14mm)
H&R front spring wire: .470 dia (12mm)
stock shock spring: 13.5 lbs; H&R: 11 lbs

range of travel: 3"

camber over range of travel:
The car was leveled within 1/16", left to right by measuring from points on the sprung chassis under the car. A digital level was placed across the tire vertically. It reads to .1-.2 degree accuracy.

fully extended: LS: 0 deg; RS -.2 deg, toe=0.00"
1" compression: LS: -.2 deg; RS: -.8 deg, toe 0.00"
2" compression: LS: -.6 deg; RS: -.8 deg, toe 0.03"
3" compression: LS:-1.0 deg; RS:-1.0 deg, toe 0.00"

that means there is no bump steer, very good news!
another note: the drop links for the sway bar aren't bad. they have no rubber bushings, just a rod end (good news). I'm going to mod mine to make the length adjustable.


the H&R spanner wrench was apparently out of stock and will come later.
There is no bump stop for the front H&R. The stock unit has a very nice compressible urethane? donut on the shock 5/8"shaft, but the H&R uses about a 1.5" dia shaft, so the old one won't work. There seems to be room inside the spring perch for a larger donut, so I have to dig one up.

*edit: just found out from H&R that the front bumper is internal

H&R tells you to use the stocker bumpers for the rear. Tommorrow i might get to the rears and stqrt figuring out an adjustable camber plate.

by the way, the LS strut is a ***** to get out because the hub won't drop far enough, so I jacked up the suspension to compress the spring and then held the spring compressed with a small bar clamp; that made the strut short enough so it would clear the lowered hub. No problem on the RS

[jlm]

the H&R's:

[DerekR]

John - that's useful information - thanks. I'm awaiting the Bilstein kit from JCW - which is taking forever - but that's more a competition item. Have you any idea of the prog. rates on the H&R springs? Also, any idea of the spring rate of the std. MCS springs?

Finally, have you messed with the toe of your car? What were your results?

[jlm]

my rig is still on the jack stands; i put in the rear units, which have .407 wire, compared to .45o stock wire. Don't know the rates, although the rear is a "dual rate" in that half of the windings are closer together.


The rear is also 1-3/8" shorter (comparing assmbled units on the bench)

still messing around; when done, the front and rear camber will be adjustable so I can do some track adjustments with tire temp. I'm not sure about the toe, I would guess 1/16 to 1/8 toe in would be a start. The best news was that the toe stays constant over the compression range. This little bugger is well made.

[Antranik]

I have a question for the camber degrees. Why are they so wildly different from the left and right side? Is that normal?

[gowest]

I'm glad to see someone besides me posting this kind of detail. KW told me they have a fix for the clearance issues with their coilovers when using the stock wheels/tires but I haven't received it yet. The good news with your coilovers is the fronts are inverted which reduces unsprung weight. The bad news is both front and rear are progressive and the spring ends are not tapered/flatened, which increases lateral loads I believe. I think it will be hard for you to get alternate springs as well because of their progressive design which is likely to be a MINI only application and not like ordering standard coil springs from Eibach or Hypercoils. KW seems to have a wide selection of 60 mm ID springs for their coilovers but I wish they would publish the info. (Edit, KW now says this info will be on their web site soon) At least some of their coilovers are made by Koni and I'm wondering if their springs are out sourced as well, I'd like to find a list of what's available with full specs of lenght, rate, weight, compressed height and travel. Eibach is really good about this kind of info but no 60 mm ID springs. For most of the racing world standard coilovers are either 2.25" ID or 2.5" ID. Spax started off with 2.25" coilovers for the MINI but changed to a "special spring" for the 03/02 and newer MINI's. When I asked what that ment they said the fronts are now tapered and there are NO alternate spring rates available, the rears are still std. 2.25" coils though so at least there are a few hunderd choices for the rear.

[jlm]

still fussing with the H&R coilovers. Something isn't sorted out yet as the minimum front lowering I can get is 1.5" (it's supposed to be 3/4") and the max is 2-1/8". There may be an interference problem with the madness rear sway/drop links also. The 1-1/2" drop gives a front camber reading of -.3 degrees, which seems fine for the street. She's a squat little thing, but not that squat!

More to come as the saga reveals itself.

also, the max drop in the rear, 1-3/4", produces a negative camber of 3 deg at that ride height, too much for the street.

[DerekR]

John - once again thanks for this thread - v.useful information. Can I ask you to post the ride heights from the centre of the rubber jacking blocks? I believe you're using the lowest part of the rubber block. I have deformed blocks (too much jacking!) and there's a nylon locater in the centre of the block which goes into the chassis and is more likely to be a consistent fit relative to the chassis. Sorry, but I do find your measurements very time saving - thanks for doing the work!

I have just put Eibach springs on and will measure the height and camber (Smartcamber) and post as soon as I get a chance.

The rear concerns me - I'm not allowed to resort to adjustable arms so that camber on the rear may be an issue.

[jlm]

i have spent considerable time fitting, measuring, de-mounting, fitting etc. and have found out the following:

my original ride height was 24.5" wheel well to floor at the front axle, stock suspension. With the H&R's fitted, that changed from 22-3/4" (1-3/4" drop) to 23-1/2" (1" drop). In order to raise the ride height, you thread the lower spring perch up the shock body, but at it's extreme, you get 1" not the 3/4" drop I wanted.
there are a couple of ways to get some more range: add a 1/4" spacer between the top strut mount and the inside of the fender well; add a spacer on top of the adjustable lower spring perch, effectively re-gaining the thread adjustment range.
I'll do the latter, and regain enough thread to only drop the car 1/2", giving me some breathing room.

the brake hose clip needs a bit of a tweak to properly locate the hose.

At the rear, the thread range is adequate, but the droplink for the sway bar will contact the spring at mid bump on the stiffer bar (maddness bar) setting only. That can be tweaked by bending the bar about 1/2" outward, requiring some heat.

H&R is working on a solution for the ride height; probably a replacement spring.

The units appear otherwise to be excellent, (they use Bilstein shocks) and If they hold to H&R's reputation should perform well.


on the minicooperonline site, daveindenver has been fighting with the H&R install as well.

if you are reading the numbers, you might have noted that Dave's front ride height started at 25.5" stock vs mine of 24.25", measuring at the same place. We both ended up at the same place with the H&R at its highest setting 23.5". therefore he records a minimum drop of 1-3/4 and I had 1".
I previously had measured ride height from the lowest point on the nearest side of the jacking point box to the floor, but since this point is between the front and rear wheels it is affected by both front and rear settings. now I amn using the distance at the axle from the ground to the wheel well at the fender edge.

H&R (and other makers) list the "amount of lowering" to be 3/4-1.5" depending on the adjustment setting, so what gives? Dave had 1-34, I had 1"?

What it boils down to is either ground clearance and/or wheel well clearance so the results are more usefully stated as that rather than lowered amount.

what we both determined is that 23.5" ride height is too low and indicates that the H&R needs another 3/4" or so of upward adjustment range.

The reason I am adding the H&R's is to be able to fine tune the corner weight and make use of a better designed shock/spring setup. I'm not as concerned about lowering per se. I drive the car on the street.

It is curious Dave had such a high ride height with the stock set up. Mine is an inch lower...how about some cntributors putting the tape tho their cars?

I do have 16" wheels and 204-45 Toyo tires, which lower the car about 3/8", but Dave had wheels and tires also.

[gowest]

On my OEM 16" wheels and tires my ride height at the top of the wheel arch was 25.875", tires will make a difference. I like the way Subaru specifies their ride ht. They measure from the center of the wheel to the edge of the wheel arch, so tires don't come into play and it's fairly easy to measure to the center of their wheels but I haven't tried this with the MINI. This should probably be the standard way to do it as it would eliminate a lot of confusion.

[Colorado "S"]

jlm: davbret started the MCO thread, but I'm the one the H&R's (DaveInDenver on MCO).

jlm has done an excellent job of posting the technical infomation / problems we've encountered, so I'll just post some pictures.



This picture shows my MINI with the H&R coilovers adjusted to the maximum front ride height. The front is still dropped 1.75" with only 2" of ground clearance.

My MINI has had three different suspension set-ups, so here are pictures of each set-up with the same wheels and tires. Each measurement was made on flat level ground with 38 psi in the tires. All measurements are from the ground to the bottom of the plastic wheel arch molding.

The Front Suspension

The pictures that follow are the stock suspension, then the H&R springs, then the coilovers.





Notice how the H&R springs have a drop of 0.75" in the front. The H&R Coilovers should be able to reproduce this same wheel gap, but even at their highest setting, my front coilovers were still a full inch lower than even the H&R springs, for a total drop of 1.75"



Notice how there is *no* wheel gap at the highest ride height



The H&R coilovers *in their highest setting* (no threads left showing on the coilover body) only allowed for ~2" of ground clearance.

The Rear Suspension

Again, the pics that follow are Stock, H&R springs, and finally the H&R coilovers.









In this picture you can see pretty dramatically how much more ground clearance is available in the back and just how little light is getting through at the front.

I really would like the thank Steve at H&R U.S.A. for his interest and quick action on this problem on our behalf. This experience has not soured me on H&R, quite the contrary. I am reassured more now than ever that H&R is committed to making a product that will satisfy their customers needs.

Also, thanks to Randy @ MINI Motorsport for all of his patience with this project.

[jlm]

as noted, with the H&R coilovers, my ride height was lowered 1" minimum, too much for the street.

I added these 5/8" spacers to raise the ride, so now my minimum is 3/8".

[jlm]

finally ready for the road:

[jlm]

see how many tweaks you can spot:

[jlm]

the rear (shown) was within range for ride height. the front required the spacer to get back to 24".

Hidden behind the muffler is a clamp for the DSC pickup arm so it will work with the adjustable upper control rod.

i'm counting about 12. did you notice the adjustable link to the sway bar?

[Laxsion]

Hi John,

Pls tell me where did you get this 'adjustable link to the sway bar' .....from after market parts shop or D.I.Y.?

Quote:

Originally posted by jlm

i'm counting about 12. did you notice the adjustable link to the sway bar?

Cheers

Laxsion

[jlm]

homemade. Cut 1" out of the stock link, threaded both ends 5/16"-24, one LH one RH. made a turnbuckle sleeve from 1/2' stainless, threaded internally to match.
did front and rear, one side only.

the stock link in quite acceptable, otherwise. the rod ends are tight and no rubber bushings are used.

[Laxsion]

Thx,got clue to ask someone (pros) to make it for me.

Quote:

Originally posted by jlm
homemade. Cut 1" out of the stock link, threaded both ends 5/16"-24, one LH one RH. made a turnbuckle sleeve from 1/2' stainless, threaded internally to match.
did front and rear, one side only.

the stock link in quite acceptable, otherwise. the rod ends are tight and no rubber bushings are used.

Laxsion

[DoNDoN]

jlm

where did u get that spacer for the front shock?
thanks

[jlm]

from a solid 3" aluminum bar; homemade.