What Big Brake Kit ???

[beatbox]

Any one recomend the best choice from these kits.
AP 304mm / 24mm, i believe to be 3.2Ib heavier than stock
Wilwood 11.75" kit,(298mm/ 21mm), 11lb lighter than stock-fits all wheels and probably cheapest.
JCW 294mm/22
Stock 276mm

I am swaying for the wilwood kit as i like the looks and anything that is lighter is good.

Anyone with experience of these kits feedback would be welcome

ps.i dont intend tracking the car.

[speedman]

Quote: Originally Posted by beatbox

Any one recomend the best choice from these kits.
AP 304mm / 24mm, i believe to be 3.2Ib heavier than stock
Wilwood 11.75" kit,(298mm/ 21mm), 11lb lighter than stock-fits all wheels and probably cheapest.
JCW 294mm/22
Stock 276mm

I am swaying for the wilwood kit as i like the looks and anything that is lighter is good.

Anyone with experience of these kits feedback would be welcome

ps.i dont intend tracking the car.

I use the AP and am very impressed with the build and performance, it fited very easily too. Never tried the Wilwood but be wary that lighter isn't always better, these are brakes and use mass and friction to stop you. Also be aware that light weight discs can be prone to thermal cracking and can even explode. I've heard some bad things about minisports light weight discs (from minisport themselves) .

The JCW just looks like standard but painted i wouldn't bother, you can usually get much better for their prices. GTT do a porsche brake kit which looks wicked but its expensive also consider tarrox.

[todd tce]

If you do not intend to track the car the 11.75 kit can be fitted with the booted calipers if so desired. Small additonal cost. Or you can do the 12.2 kit which has booted calipers. The race kit is such that it has a better rotor than the larger one and has stainless steel, non booted pistons. Both 12.2 kits have non directional rotors where the 11.75 is directional. Either of them would be ample for your needs however.

The weight savings come from both the caliper body as well as the use of the aluminum hats. Rotor mass is greater on the 11.75 but even the 12.2 kits have decent meat where you need it.

Comparing the options you list the WW kit comes out on top over the AP by way of the two piece design rather than a one piece rotor. Calipers are about equal. The JCW kits while popular still retain the floater caliper deisgn and one piece rotor. Neither of which are desired for pure performance. However they would allow the greatest wheel selection.

Stock? Put on some slotted rotors, better pads and some SS hoses and you have the best "Brake Enhancement" package which will probably meet your needs too for street use. But be heavier and look kinda whimpy!

[woodsy_bear]

This is the email reply I got from Randy Webb when I asked him about the AP Racing kit.

I would recommend the Wilwood kit, as it has no holes, and is a two
piece rotor,
making it lighter.

I have used the AP kit, and while the rotor didn't crack, the caliper
does have
boots on the pistons, which melted under track conditions.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks!
Randy

In short it all depends on what you want the kit for, if its just for show then the AP Racing kit should be fine, but there are a few people on this site who use this kit on track and have had no problems.

[s_and_m]

Quote: Originally Posted by woodsy_bear

I have used the AP kit, and while the rotor didn't crack, the caliper
does have
boots on the pistons, which melted under track conditions.

.

I've used the AP kit on the track (and gave it somer serious abuse on an airfield day as well. It out performed the stock set up and allowed me to keep out braking other cars for longer and with better confidence.

It does get quite loud when the pads get hot under heavy loads and the drilled discs are not my first choice but I would say that the AP kit is more than just a "show" kit.

Downside is I can't use my stock 17 wheels anymore without spacers (why would I want too?), it doesn't save weight over stock and it has single peice drilled rotors.

Upside is it works like an amazing stopping thing, and it keeps on working, stop after stop after stop. It also looks nice

For the cash, it offered me the best quality/cost compromise.

S

Would I buy it again? Probably - but I'd be tempted by the Tarox 6 pots as well

[StuJones]

Unless it for looks I would say none.

Stock disc's and rotors are fine. Just add braided lines, high temp fluid and uprated pads if needed

[s_and_m]

I'd rather have a 4 pot caliper bringing me to a halt than a single pot one - especially if I'm going to demand many stops under high temps.

S

[Loui]

Quote: Originally Posted by StuJones

Unless it for looks I would say none.

Stock disc's and rotors are fine. Just add braided lines, high temp fluid and uprated pads if needed

I did this on my old car an to be honnest it improved it, but it still wasnt brilliant, will be buying a Big brake set up when ive got the cash saved up

[StuJones]

There is actually quite a degree of error in the belief that bigger brakes equate to better stopping.

Regardless of huge rotor diameter, brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of pistons in your calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by the tyre to road interface. Brakes do not stop your car. Tyres stop the car. So while changes to different parts of the brake system may affect certain characteristics or traits of the system behavior, using stickier tyres is ultimately the only sure-fire method of decreasing stopping distances.

Sure the stock brakes have a considerable degree of limitation but just increasing rotor and callipers are not the answer. The stock equipment can be made to perform as well as or maybe even better than a big brake kit. Yes it has to work a lot harder but it also has advantages.

Big brake kits may feel more assured in the pedal but in some ways can cause the stopping ability to be reduced as they for one add rolling weight and also impact the brake bias which is the real issue that needs to be addressed if you want to stop faster in a MINI.

Big brake kits have a habbit of over accentuating the already heavily fronted brake bias in the MINI so that during the braking process the weight transfer and brake effectiveness can be reduced as the front locks up (or tries to) well before the back is even close to usefull, this as a result increases braking distance.


Im not against big brake kits, its just that they are not the quick fix to the stopping equation that people think they are. If you have GT4 go and try it out. Set up a car and start playing with brakes, suspension setup for weight distribution and brake bias. You will be surprised with the results

[Mike Edwards]

Final sentence of 2nd-to-last para:

Surely that should read "increases braking distance" or "reduces braking efficiency"?

[StuJones]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mike Edwards

Final sentence of 2nd-to-last para:

Surely that should read "increases braking distance" or "reduces braking efficiency"?

Yep sorry poor grammar there. been edited to be more clear

[todd tce]

Quote: Originally Posted by StuJones

There is actually quite a degree of error in the belief that bigger brakes equate to better stopping.

Regardless of huge rotor diameter, brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of pistons in your calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by the tyre to road interface. Brakes do not stop your car. Tyres stop the car. So while changes to different parts of the brake system may affect certain characteristics or traits of the system behavior, using stickier tyres is ultimately the only sure-fire method of decreasing stopping distances.

Sure the stock brakes have a considerable degree of limitation but just increasing rotor and callipers are not the answer. The stock equipment can be made to perform as well as or maybe even better than a big brake kit. Yes it has to work a lot harder but it also has advantages.

Big brake kits may feel more assured in the pedal but in some ways can cause the stopping ability to be reduced as they for one add rolling weight and also impact the brake bias which is the real issue that needs to be addressed if you want to stop faster in a MINI.

Big brake kits have a habbit of over accentuating the already heavily fronted brake bias in the MINI so that during the braking process the weight transfer and brake effectiveness can be reduced as the front locks up (or tries to) well before the back is even close to usefull, this as a result increases braking distance.


Im not against big brake kits, its just that they are not the quick fix to the stopping equation that people think they are. If you have GT4 go and try it out. Set up a car and start playing with brakes, suspension setup for weight distribution and brake bias. You will be surprised with the results

There are some true comments in your post no doubt. Howerver there is some misconception here as well.

True a BBK may not 'stop your car in shorter distance' much for the reason you state. On the other hand using a properly designed BBK will achieve that level of brake torque in a far more efficient manner. In simplistic terms; work the stock parts at capacity or work the BBK at 80% and have more reserve.

Often overlooked and not spoken about are other real world benefits; far greater pad selection, reduce corner weight, better thermal management of caliper temps (aluum vs iron) better thermal capacity and management via the rotor, improves pedal feel and modulation, fast clamping and release aspects, and simply more durable results in hard use applications.

As for improperly designed or biased kits, yes there are a number of them out there for sure. But that's a blanket statement which is not totally correct. A number of them are clearly thought out and the result support the design.

Stock brakes working as well or better? For a daily driver in city traffic? Perhaps. Be very hard to tell. For autocross? Maaybe there are some benefits to some stock parts in the hands of the right driver...but at the cost of high wear rates and costs vs. net results in a 30 second run. In the end that statement is just plain all wrong and without substance. If the product is proorly designed you might make that stick, but that's not a fault of the BBK it's the fault with the supplier/builder.

The BBK is not for everyone. Nor does everyone need one. That does not diminish it's value though.

[StuJones]

Quote: Originally Posted by todd tce

There are some true comments in your post no doubt. Howerver there is some misconception here as well.

True a BBK may not 'stop your car in shorter distance' much for the reason you state. On the other hand using a properly designed BBK will achieve that level of brake torque in a far more efficient manner. In simplistic terms; work the stock parts at capacity or work the BBK at 80% and have more reserve.

Often overlooked and not spoken about are other real world benefits; far greater pad selection, reduce corner weight, better thermal management of caliper temps (aluum vs iron) better thermal capacity and management via the rotor, improves pedal feel and modulation, fast clamping and release aspects, and simply more durable results in hard use applications.

As for improperly designed or biased kits, yes there are a number of them out there for sure. But that's a blanket statement which is not totally correct. A number of them are clearly thought out and the result support the design.

Stock brakes working as well or better? For a daily driver in city traffic? Perhaps. Be very hard to tell. For autocross? Maaybe there are some benefits to some stock parts in the hands of the right driver...but at the cost of high wear rates and costs vs. net results in a 30 second run. In the end that statement is just plain all wrong and without substance. If the product is proorly designed you might make that stick, but that's not a fault of the BBK it's the fault with the supplier/builder.

The BBK is not for everyone. Nor does everyone need one. That does not diminish it's value though.

I agree there are some assumptions in my discussion that probably unfairly lump all brake kits into one big bucket. There are definately better brands than others.

Regarding stock brakes working better, whilst its not a likely occurance, but if you have a brake kit that is heavier (and there are more than a few that are) and does not manage the bias configuration properly then this would be the case. Many kits are just a rotor and disk exchange, this does nothing to reconfigure the change in brake bias?

I would also find it hard to understand how a race configured stock brakes and a BBK would show any appreciable difference over a 30sec autocross event? More likely in a longer distance high use event like a tarmac rally stage or multilap circuit event.

Maybe the cost points are different in the UK or US, but pads are no cheaper and mostly more expensive for equivalent brands for BBK. I think the cost discussion based on reduced wear would only work out after long term extended use if you take into account the cost of investment in the kit to start with.

I suppose the point I am trying to relay is that if its just for day to day or the occaisonal 'spirited drive' then unless the aim of the BBK is appearance the benefits can be marginal for the cost involved.

[robbo mcs]

Hi,

To add my 2cents worth to this discussion.

In my opinion, a big brake kit is probably one of the worst value for money upgrades you can do on the mini. They are expensive, and for the vast majority of people simply not necessary. It is possible to do simple modifications to the standard brakes that make the performance acceptable.

Big brakes do not stop you any quicker (from speeds of around 160kmh or under). That is an undeniable fact. At speeds of 200kmh + a BBK will stop you marginally quicker. The big advantage of a BBK is a more consistent performance under repeated stress, and more resistance to fade. However, the majority of mini drivers do not need this.

I have standard calipers, with a high performance pad, braided lines, upgraded fluid and brake ducts. Using a proper braking technique this is more than adequate for any road driving.

I have competed in tarmac rallies, where there are closed road stages, using a navigator with pace notes, both sides of the road, and running at speeds up to 180kmh for stages up to 50km in length. The stress on the brakes in these kind of events is way beyond anything ever achieved in "spirited" road driving, or club runs etc. I have never, ever suffered brake fade on a road.

I also do circuit racing, where the stress on the brakes is raised another magnitude. Under these circumstances my brake setup starts to fade after around 20 minutes of racing.

If someone has an unlimited budget, then a BBK is probably a reasonable thing to do. However, it is possible to improve the brake performance to excellent levels for a lot less money by modifying the standard brake setup.

Unfortunately, there is a mantra repeated over and over on websites like this and NAM that a BBK is necessary, and people just tend to take it as fact, and repeat it again and again.

There is the secondary issue of "cosmetic" appeal. I am the first to agree that a BBK looks fantastic, especially with the right set of wheels, discs and callipers If you are aiming for a great look, and better brake performance, then the BBK makes more sense

Thats my 2cents worth over and done with.

Cheers

Robbo

[todd tce]

While my loyalty may obviously lie in one brand the comments here are in general enough terms to support all who who offer a properly designed aftermarket BBK and I doubt any others in the business will disagree with much of this. Please accept it as point/counterpoint only.

What I can offer you is that both of you are "leaving a lot on the table" if not truly considering such a purchase. While I may be the first to admit that a BBK is NOT for everyone it's common to hear folks tell me that "I wish I'd done this long ago before I spent all my money on XXX as this is truly one of the best invstments I've made" .

I agree that daily drivers can do without, autocross without and even open trackers without.

But....clearly the second and third DO achieve significant benefit. You've failed to note the comments on reduced weght (some both unsprung, some rotational, some both) as well as the superior choice of pad compounds for many calipers (with costs at that of stock pads often) as well as the mechanical aspects of the part. Say what? Let's look at the stock caliper and it's floating design- it's a cheap, stock design used for years and does an ample job. The fixed multi piston caliper however offers far superior modulation and reaction time than the floater which relies on a guide pin. *note the fit of alternate floating pins to aide in improving this- of course, it's a marginal design and can use some help.

What's this mean to the autocross and open track guy? I'd wger that for the autocross you'd see a few tenths of time taken off and for the track a couple of seconds. How can this be if the car is not stopped any shorter? (a simple comment that still has a few flaws in it- as in fitting better tires for track use can then in turn allow for more brake exploitation) The lowered times come from the reaction time, the feedback to the driver and better temperatrue management. In bare bones- take the stock parts out for 20 laps and they begin to fade as you drive at 8/10th, but take the BBK out and run all day long at 9/10th and have no problems. Anyone open tracking a car on stock brakes knows that "keeping the brakes under you" is important. Putting that aside you can spend time on other things.

There ARE many variables in some of this and not every kit nor every use is going to see benefits. Dollar for dollar however the BBK is still a far better investment than some other auto related parts. I know a lot of folks who have put on engine mods hyped up to be such great items and removed them and scratch their hed. I don't know of anyone takig off a BBK for not being a good investment. In fact in a head to head I'd take the stock car with a good BBK over a modestly warmed over engine and stock brakes in a head to head on a lot of open track days.