R56 Cooper 2007 Camshafts not rotating when cranked - MINI Cooper Forum

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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 25th, 2019, 12:57 PM Thread Starter
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R56 Cooper 2007 Camshafts not rotating when cranked

Hi all,

I picked up a 2007 1.6 Petrol manual Mini Cooper cheap as a none-runner. It has 110,000 miles on it.

The story with it is that it was recently acquired, they bought a set of tyres, had a new clutch fitted and on the advice of a family acquaintance who is a mechanic had a new timing chain fitted (by him).

After a short amount of time (a matter of days), the car refused to start. They had spent enough money on it and wanted shut.

When I went to look at it (outside the garage who had fitted the chain and had recovered the car) the car cranked on ignition but that was it. One thing I noticed was that a cam sensor was not connected.

Anyway I bought the car as a bit of a project (wife's future runaround) and now it's on my driveway.

There were fault codes indicating a cam sensor issue but that proved to be a red-herring as it was quite apparent when looking down the oil filler with someone else cranking the engine that the camshafts weren't rotating. I can't believe whoever fitted the timing chain didn't check this and went for the cam sensor - but hey ho. Maybe they didn't want to admit to a cock-up to a 'friend'.

I can't get the wheels off at the moment as the security adapter for the locking nuts is buggered (I'm guessing timing-chain person over-egged it) and am waiting for a bolt remover to arrive. So I haven't got easy access to the crankshaft pulley.

What I have done though is try to rotate the engine via the camshaft pulley. Both cams turn, none of the cam followers appear to be damaged (to these un-trained eyes) and the chain is intact and appears in good condition all the way along it's length.

However it's quite apparent looking down the spark plug holes that the pistons are not moving.

From a bit of research, I see that the crankshaft pulley bolt must be replaced and torqued correctly for the timing sprocket to be clamped adequately.

From what I can see the crankshaft bolt doesn't look new so I'm guessing at the moment that the sprocket is slipping- hence the camshafts weren't being turned when the engine was being cranked on the starter and in turn rotating the camshafts whilst moving the chain around isn't turning the crank.

Has anybody encountered this - I can't believe that at the minimum some valves haven't been bent?

At the moment my minimum outlay will be for a timing-chain tool kit and crank bolt. I'll pull the head off (so I'll need a gasket set) but what's the chances of no damage ?
Any other jobs that I should do whilst the head is off ?

I'm not a mechanic by any stretch of the imagination but have had the heads off a few cars. None with timing-chains it has to be admitted - but they all started up after I finished
Cheers,
Steve.

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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 28th, 2019, 12:24 PM
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OK, your security bolts, you can release these using a socket, use one that is slightly too small to slot over the edge and hammer it onto the fairly soft security head, use a socket handle and breaker bar. Your security nuts are trash anyway. Worked for me.
If the mechanic did not torque the crankshaft bolt (negligence) to the correct tollerance (and it is huge btw, when I did mine the first socket ruptured as I was doing the angle turn) it would give you those symptoms. I agree, it would be highly unlikely valves have not collided with pistons at some point in this mess. Once you solve the crankshaft mystery, a cylinder pressure test would be next (no need to pull the head if pressures are good) and any loss would be a head off and valve stem check.


Cooper 2009, R57.
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 28th, 2019, 01:01 PM
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hmmm sounds to me the muppet who try'd to change the timing chain the first time cut corners and never used new camshaft bolts and crankshaft bolt,,
the cam shafts ones are 20nm plus 90+90 degrees, so if reused they would end up 360 degrees not good when 3,90 each new, the crankshaft bolts is 40nm plus 120degrees same thing would end up 240 degrees if reused a stretch bolt is designed to get a torsion pressure with in the hot and cold temps within a engine,
as security bolts ? do you mean the torx spline link below, the are only that shape as transfer force better they say,
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Torx-Star...AAAOSwbqpT45Ag

also when doing new chain kit there is a updated tensioner pics below ie longer genuine one
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Albert Einstein: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 28th, 2019, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1967 View Post
hmmm sounds to me the muppet who try'd to change the timing chain the first time cut corners and never used new camshaft bolts and crankshaft bolt,,
the cam shafts ones are 20nm plus 90+90 degrees, so if reused they would end up 360 degrees not good when 3,90 each new, the crankshaft bolts is 40nm plus 120degrees same thing would end up 240 degrees if reused a stretch bolt is designed to get a torsion pressure with in the hot and cold temps within a engine,
as security bolts ? do you mean the torx spline link below, the are only that shape as transfer force better they say,
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Torx-Star...AAAOSwbqpT45Ag

also when doing new chain kit there is a updated tensioner pics below ie longer genuine one
It is his wheel nuts he cannae get off :-) 'I can't get the wheels off at the moment as the security adapter for the locking nuts is buggered (I'm guessing timing-chain person over-egged it) and am waiting for a bolt remover to arrive. So I haven't got easy access to the crankshaft pulley.'

Cooper 2009, R57.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 28th, 2019, 02:33 PM Thread Starter
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That's right. Wheel bolts ! :-)

I tried the smacking the socket trick, it has worked for me before.

The security bolt has a slight shoulder on the head so it' slightly smaller than the diameter of the rest of it.

When I smacked a socket over it, it seemed to get mangled on the smaller part then just spun around the larger part (not explained that very well). Needless to say it didn't work.

The bolt removal set just arrived - this is the sort that is reverse-threaded and is supposed to cut it's way onto the bolt head as it tightens then out comes the bolt

Didn't even scratch it so that's going back and I've ordered a toughened smack-on type remover.

Getting no-where fast with this one. When I finally get unfettered access to the crank pulley, I'll report back!!
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 28th, 2019, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angst View Post
That's right. Wheel bolts ! :-)

I tried the smacking the socket trick, it has worked for me before.

The security bolt has a slight shoulder on the head so it' slightly smaller than the diameter of the rest of it.

When I smacked a socket over it, it seemed to get mangled on the smaller part then just spun around the larger part (not explained that very well). Needless to say it didn't work.

The bolt removal set just arrived - this is the sort that is reverse-threaded and is supposed to cut it's way onto the bolt head as it tightens then out comes the bolt

Didn't even scratch it so that's going back and I've ordered a toughened smack-on type remover.

Getting no-where fast with this one. When I finally get unfettered access to the crank pulley, I'll report back!!
you will need to chisel the round roller collar off the locking bolt, some have them some dont, if dont then i use a big hammer some times on a breaker bar get someone to hit end of breaker bar while someone turns it,, failing that angle grinder or dremel and make the edge of bolt with grooves so the tool digs in,,
or you could give reg number to bmw mini main dealers and they will older the locking tool for you, if genuine ones
or a master set below
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22pc-Bmw-...AAAOSw30JbBotZ

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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 29th, 2019, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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Hi,

Quick update. Managed to get the wheel bolt off (it was one of the spinning collar ones - McGuard).

In the end I used my Dremmel to shave the head of the bolt enough to get the collar off over it THEN whacked a socket over it to get it off.

Now I can get the wheel arch liner out I can get to the crank pulley and report back!

Thanks for the help so far.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 29th, 2019, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angst View Post
Hi,

Quick update. Managed to get the wheel bolt off (it was one of the spinning collar ones - McGuard).

In the end I used my Dremmel to shave the head of the bolt enough to get the collar off over it THEN whacked a socket over it to get it off.

Now I can get the wheel arch liner out I can get to the crank pulley and report back!

Thanks for the help so far.
i know what its lie the first time i ever come up against those locking nuts with spinners on them, i use a 18v dewart impact gun these day works a treat with the reversed thread removal tools
ONLY TRY AND TURN ENGINE CLOCKWISE NEVER ANTI CLOCKWISE AS WILL WIND THE CHAIN TENSIONER IN AND GET MORE SLIP ON SPROCKETS AND COULD DO MORE DAMAGE

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 2019, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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I managed to get a few minutes on it today and took the wheel-arch liner out (dead easy as somebody has broke most of the retaining plugs already) and got a look at the crank bolt.

Unsurprisingly it was loose, so loose I could pretty much turn it with my fingers.

So I want to time it up and see if it starts before ripping the head off.

At present I don't have a workshop manual (deff going to have to invest in one) but looking around at all the timing chain videos online for inspiration they are assuming that the timing is in sync and clamping everything off prior to removing the chain.

As mine isn't, are there any timing marks I can line the cams/crank up with ? Could I get away with leaving the chain in situ??
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 2019, 12:14 PM
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No timing marks. Undo and remove the vanos/sprockets. All to do with the pistons being alligned and even height, putting in the flywheel locking tool (this gaurantees you are not 180 deg out) and lining up the cams with Exhaust and Inlet wording on top. All explained in the youtube videos, the one with wires in the sparkplug holes is good I will find a link. Put on the timing/cam locking tools and start to reassemble. Once the tools are on the cams and pistons alligned, it is timed up. That is the whole point of the cam lock tools, it is impossible without them!!!

Crankshaft and Cam bolts MUST be new. At all stages and when double checking timing/cam placement only ever rotate the crankshaft clockwise.

I don't see why you cannot leave the chain in place but you MUST allign everything exactly and follow the instructions in the videos, you cannot skip any steps. Me, I would be checking out the lower sprocket to ensure it was replaced and with that mileage, change out the oil pump chain since I am in there, and a new crankshaft seal just in case.


Cooper 2009, R57.

Last edited by Scudder; Apr 2nd, 2019 at 12:27 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 2019, 12:17 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWgcPTjcvjg

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQyyGEg7uSQ

Both good.

Mike also suggests quite often to not do the final torque settings until you have checked compression on all cylinders to ensure there are no bent/stuck valves which is very likely in your case.

Cooper 2009, R57.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 2019, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info - all make sense. So I'll get the timing kit ordered.

I guess I will be lucky if no valves have been bent in the initial incident. My main concern is try to get the crank and cams into the correct positions without causing any/more damage.
I've never worked on an engine with a chain before. I've replaced belts before they went on a couple of my old cars and only replaced one that had already failed. That was a CVH engine in an old Escort and it was fairly obvious that something had happened as two or three of the exhaust cam followers had snapped.

I'm mindful of a posting I saw from Mike referencing a VW engine being hand-cranked that was only a tooth out and causing valve damage.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 2019, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scudder View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWgcPTjcvjg

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQyyGEg7uSQ

Both good.

Mike also suggests quite often to not do the final torque settings until you have checked compression on all cylinders to ensure there are no bent/stuck valves which is very likely in your case.
ha ha made me laugh that one he spent all that time making a tool to hold the crankshaft pulley,,, when the bottom locking pint that slots in to the flywheel is a hardened steel pin designed to be used as a lock to pressure against, i have a locking kit i have had for 10 years now its gets used a lot and everyone including me use it same way.and never breaks or goes loose time and time again it does the job with out fail, even the cheap ebay set is same,
i always compression test them on the old bolts done up enough to hold the timing in and do compression test on them, rather than have o take it apart twice, as no customers would want to pay for it twice,

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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 17th, 2019, 04:45 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the help so far. Update:-

So I've had a bit more time on this and I bought a cheap timing tool kit.
I removed the timing chain and rotated the top and bottom ends to get the timing correct according to my kit. As it happens the cam locks were really tight with no play in them and, like most others it seems, I had to sand the crank locking pin down a little. In fact this was such a pain to get in that I had my assistant (wife) rotating the crank whilst I waited for the hole to come past with the help of an endoscope :-)

I've used the old bolts on the cams and crank for now (torqued but not angle rotated) and used the existing tensioner as it looks like they have used a new one with the new chain.
I have rotated the engine half a dozen time, re-applied the kit and the timing is still correct.

So the next thing I need to do is a compression test to see if anything happened whilst the chain slipped.

The thing I want advice on is, am I OK now to re-connect the battery and turn it over on the starter to do the compression test ?

I would think so, but what's making me wary is that I seem to recall seeing a posting on another thread in this forum where somebody failed to attach a lead to the rocker cover(I think?) and got a spark and the engine subsequently failed to start.

At present I have off, the rocker cover, air intake assembly, throttle body, VANOS solenoid, and auxilliary belt. Any issues I should be aware of ?
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 17th, 2019, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
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Forgot to add, engine top mount is also off and earth strap.
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