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We've just bought a 2017 Countryman Cooper S PHEV. Fantastic car but we quickly realised the electric range was an issue. We're getting around 8miles in MaxEDrive with the Green driving setting. Sensible driving, aircon and heater off. What electric range do others get on these cars? Have done a lot of googling and the worst I've seen people get is 14miles. But it's difficult to work out whether thats for the newer models with the bigger hybrid battery. I think the stated electric range on this model and age is 24miles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
So the car has now been back to mini. They couldn't find anything wrong with it and apparently the battery is in good condition.

However, range is still 14miles at best and the maximum available electric range is only 17miles on a full charge.

The did say that battery preconditioning (preheating) makes a big difference. But we found this to make no difference at all.

I managed to find the original specification sheet for the car and it states electric only range of 40km, 24.85miles. Would still love to know why we can't achieve it. Our experience is 44% lower range at best.
 

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With the larger capacity battery mine shows a range of approx 21 miles in current climate after a full overnight charge. In actuality I am achieving somewhat less, maybe 15-18, with the heating on in current weather conditions and stop start driving around town. I imagine heating is creating quite an electrical load.

What I can see is, just like any car, stop start driving is using up to double the energy compared to a gentle tour down a motorway. Probably I was expecting better energy recovery from braking.

None of this helps solve your dilemma I am afraid.
 

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Hi, don't know if you have resolved this yet, but driving in Green mode will almost certainly reduce your electric range quite dramatically as it switches off regeneration (e.g. going downhill or braking). I'm now 2 months in to mine and worst I have had is 21 miles, best 31. Outside temperature seems to make a big difference. Air Con, lights, heater and wipers also take a big toll.
 

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Bog standard R56 cooper (2008)
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Folks.
"Hybrid vehicles" = a heavy metal car, + all that engine weight, + heavy battery + heavy lead acid battery+ heavy (dense) electric motor for that 0-30mph tractio (or whatever) ...then whatever YOU weigh.

Hybrid are a well marketed tool for people who tend not to know much about the tech & its limitations imho (ensuring lots of cross purpose servicing, & normal car maintainance packaged slightly differently to eke out the increasingly desperate fossil fuel car industries desire to not shift (as witnessed in america & europe)

The weight of 2.4 kWh capacity (useable capacity 2.16kWh) pylontech home battery (mainly the battery) is 24kg multiply that by whatever yours is to the weight, being carried by either fossil fuel or battery & with respect, open ones eyes as to what each tech has to shift, an engine is not a light "thing" after all.

Therefore a small phev "hybrid" battery has a lot to contend with, often gives disappointing real world mileage, likely doesn't have a full BEV's battery regenerating brakes ..therefore is really limited, nor are phev drivers likely driving like bev drivers.

Rule of thumb for pure EV drivers whether its a 24kwh leaf or a tesla, we ted to aim for a return of minimum 3.8 miles per kWh of battery but more likely aim for 4.2 miles per kWh, environmental factors of location, weather, inclines, occupants use of stereo, heating, cooling etc are factors in play.

IF your heater is old style "heated wire element" then that's stupidly inefficient compared to a heat pump with a decent COP (co-efficient performance) ..read up, this is why folks are (location dependent) installing them as partial / whole house heaters to help in the shoulder months in many places, ..to briefly explain, a cop rating of 4 = (theoretically) 1 unit of energy in (1 kWh) & 4 units out (4kWh) out as either HEAT or COOLING.

There are limitations to all technologies in tough / unsuitable locations / environs, but efficiency helps, if a hybrid phev does not have a heat pump it is "peeing" away power in colder months / environs, when you also have to knock off some efficiency due to cold affecting the battery.

Any designer that omits a heat pump in a battery equipped car is a bit of a nerk or at worst a contemptible scumbag, therefore any manufacturer who does that is not winning future customers easily when they live with the shortcomings experienced as "problems"

My wife, in the early days due to advertising & not understanding the use / limitations / dumbness of hybrid in our driving lives wanted a hybrid, we live in the countryside, not a town / city urban environ, ...her work route (uk temperature range) was around 16 miles door to door, I asked her to note when she would be doing 30mph or under on a trip, she left the cul-de-sac & accelerated , within a few seconds she was out of battery range (I think it was a prius or nothing back then) & that was pretty much it in terms of pure battery use until parking up at work (a hospital)

In the meantime you are carrying all that weight, the engine is still connected & spinning to some effect as it has to be seamless continuity between the motor & the engine (so ongoing wear regardless) lugging ALL that weight if you ever read a doctor doolittle book I refer to hybrids as the "push-me-pull-you" ..weight drives efficiency down, so why burden it?

The BMW i3 was a bit of an exception with its plastic panels (lighter) & small motorbike engine as the battery range extender which topped up the battery (still a hybrid in effect) ..so if you use a pre-existing design & shoe horn a small heavy battery pack & associated gubbins you buy a "compromise" ...a cake with a slice missing.

Pure battery vehicles (BEV) / Battery Electric Vehicles are already heavy but operate at a higher efficiency % resulting in (if charging from home) cheap driving.
In London (uk) even the hybrid is being phased out for city driving due to its polluting ways.

Whilst all vehicles have tyres (micro pollutants) it is way less than exhaust emissions, that & a BEV can (it is estimated) be "build neutral" (carbon cost) in around 8000 miles, compared to an ICE / hybrid which keeps on polluting throughout its life.

IF a phev has regen braking then it could be 10-15% battery energy range put back in a battery in a journey (using the electric motor as the brake) but if a battery starts out full it has nothing to return energy too, as there's no spare capacity, this applies to BEV too.

Yup, we own a mini, it's petrol, for occasional fun use / teaching our daughter manual gearbox driving, & we simply would never buy a hybrid / phev because it just doesn't make sense in terms of operational costs nor efficiency.

Please note, I'm not damning anyone for buying a hybrid, I blame marketing, I simply wish people would do more homework as to the real world use / implementation of technology before parting with cash, & advertising is a lot of hooey in most cases "narrative story telling" & massive repetitive paid for exposure till your brain complies, more so now in a world of influencers on all platforms.

NB there are some honest sales folk out there to ask way too many questions & try & fit a vehicle akin to a shoe on your foot, but that gets them told off for honesty, weekly numbers, & the potential for boring the backsides off people with "tech".
In our experience though, ICE dealers selling phev or bev were neither interested nor knowledgeable, so much so that we "walked" from every dealer due to misinformation, LIES, dis-interest on their part, ..except for tesla

Heritage brand ICE dealers until recently likely had a mere ONE car that was bev or hybrid (toyota being an exception) & no-one could be bothered to learn about them, ..now their sales are becoming more reliant on tech they sneered at ..in our experience.

Modern cars often use old tech parts, we, having seen the useful nature of energy returns with the heat pump in the leaf waited till the "octo" heat pump was confirmed in the tesla 3, ...guess what they were using before ;)

None of this help your mileage query (sorry) but hopefully gives you some 2+2 info to cogitate over a cup of tea / coffee in relation to small battery low miles.
 

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Hi Mr Gus, whilst I agree with you (especially the "do your homework before buying" bit!), I fear you may be unduly harsh on hybrids, which have an important place in the real world journey to transport de-carbonisation. In particular you are missing the context that makes these vehicles a good fit for some of today's users.

Of course, not all hybrids are equal and if your goal is purely CO2 reduction (i.e. save the planet), then a full BEV should be best, although complexity of manufacture, use of exotic materials, extra weight and predominantly high CO2 electricity generation around the world mean that it is very far from carbon zero. Most importantly though, there is insufficient vehicle manufacturing or electricity generating/distribution capacity for us all to change to pure BEVs in the next 10 years. So not a pragmatic short or even mid-term solution. Hydrogen works well and could be more convenient, but for the foreseeable future it just multiplies the dirty electricity problem exponentially; the well heeled may kid themselves that they are buying green electricity, but they are mostly buying renewables certificates and there aren't enough for everyone. In these circumstances, well designed hybrids are surely a reasonable half-way house.

Conversely, if your goal is simply improved inner city air quality (i.e. save the planet's city dwellers), BEVs certainly rule but the internal combustion engine has not had its day yet; Euro 6 (and 7) engines, including diesels, achieve a drastic improvement over older vehicles in NOx and CO (but not always CO2). Conventional hybrids are probably the worst of both worlds, with high CO, real world NOx and CO2, high exhaust particle emissions, plus a very real emerging microscopic tyre particle problem, all exacerbated by the vehicle weight. Nevertheless, in the outer to inner inner city cycle (i.e. travel into town for work/shopping commuters), the PHEV has potential to be as good as a BEV, or as bad as a conventional hybrid, entirely depending on the driver's behaviour.

The only MINI hybrid is a PHEV, which has a full size engine and a comparatively large battery (by hybrid standards) plus FWIW a cabin heat pump, excellent regeneration and uses waste engine/battery heat when available. To meet EU standards, current models can achieve between 20 and 30 miles on pure battery, which for me (and most people in the UK) will cover 90% of my normal daily trips at less than half the fuel cost of petrol. From time to time I need to do urgent long range trips (450 miles) at short notice, with little opportunity to re-charge and for these it can manage about 300 miles on petrol - not a massive range, but at legal speeds more than enough between (sensible) stops where petrol is still widely available. I would have loved to buy a full BEV from the start, but they remain very expensive. Range is improving, but doesn't yet meet my needs (it may never do, but my needs may change instead) and most importantly, they are still relatively difficult to get hold of (especially post Covid).

Practicality means that we can't all have a pure BEV now. Climate change and poor air quality means that we cannot continue to run high CO2 ICEs all the time. The Countryman PHEV is proving a ideal half way house for me (but I appreciate, not for everyone). My one disappointment is its slow charging rate, but it replaced a Range Rover Evoque and a 2016 MINI Hatch and is more powerful, just as comfortable, just as much fun, just as reliable (so far) and my detailed records show that since April, my car has probably released less than 45% of the RR's eCO2 and 60% of the MINI Hatch had I still been using them (even less if I kid myself that my electricity is green). That is not enough to save the planet, but it is a practical start. :)
 

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I hear "not enough range" all the time, it's not an empirical reality for many who cite it.
Splash & dash is fast, & a break from the road to aid alertness is a must have that many live in denial of to shave minutes off a trip, however a well designed BEV is much quieter & relaxing to drive / be a passenger in, it is altogether more chilled as a result.

Wife drives her tesla many hours per day, which makes it more affordable based on paid per mile as part of her healthcare job, second hand market for EV is drastically improved compared to 2020 lockdown figures when I used to go BCA & check stock, its positively exploded.

Different driving technique provides different levels of wear, performance & MPG / MPkWh ..chances are change in technique isn't understood & applied to get improved results.

"Exotic" materials are everywhere in production, however as I had to inform a dullard down the pub, the majority of EV / hybrid battery material doesn't come from slave mining, (chinese related ev firms are not so good, however many US / Euro brands will have supply lines of dubious origin that need addressing)

SR+ 2021 is cobalt free (for instance) that battery recipe is being brought into other vehicles, we are o some extent a test bed for new tech as tesla owners.
The dullard down the pub was rambling on about lithium mining whilst flashing his suicide net needed phone from apple via foxconn ...but couldn't see anything wrong with that !?

We bought the 3 as natural progression, a new car was needed, & it was a way of building in reduced costs to the benefit of many, we chose it because of the battery tech (cobalt free) recyclability, reduced noise & air pollution ..not on brand bragging & 0-60 times, its a social thing & much needed change.

A BEV keeps pollution down once it has accounted for production material carbon costs (some say 8000 miles) then it keeps saving, compared to oil drilling, refining, transportation, tail pipe emissions.

The more weight you add to a vehicle the less efficient it becomes basically, so adding kit that is not utilised properly (eg a return of 7 miles on battery) is not good in any shape or form, rendering the kit nigh on useless, either poor design or poor driving technique that fails to be taught to battery vehicle drivers, sold by many DNGAD salespersons, which based on our intention NOT to buy a tesla drove us into the 3.

Weight & energy efficiency, extra materials, additional cost for a dual motor (unnecessary except for vanity) don't interest us, cheap efficient motoring does.

After dieselgate, & various lies from car manufacturers in relation to emission fiddles we also voted with our feet to some degree.

If I was selling a woodstove I'd be giving the owner a bag of fine ash. (& an explanation why)
If I was selling an EV / Hybrid i'd be teaching them how to drive it & charge it (they don't, & we see many bewildered people trying to charge a modern BEV / Hybrid who simply have not been told / shown, ..that's a poor start to ownership.

Green electricity:

If you live near commercial wind turbines & the blades are turning then likely you are mostly getting green energy as it is fed into the network near you.

If you look at ripple energy (1st turbine going up now) you can offset "for real" by investing in a long term ownership share to cover part (say 10%) of your electricity useage through to 120% ..for the life of the turbine which is typically stated at 25 years but tends to be longer, due to recent energy price rises the investment payback time has dropped considerably, ...you may wish to look into it, its been a long struggle to get to where it is now overseen by the MD (a woman) who has touted community owned energy for likely 6 years, turbine two (based in scotland) will be open for subscription early-ish2022, I anticipate a big pile on this time round.

You are ok with the additional maintainance costs then? or is it a buy, drive, return lease? hopefully avoiding the mechanical problems of a higher mileage engine / uncertainty of cities wanting to crack down & earn a few quid from non electric, ..hybrid is in the cross hairs in newly expanded london ULEZ / OLEZ (or whatever it's called) to be phased out, making long term ownership questionable so soon after it was promoted.

In terms of "not enough capacity for energy to charge all the Ev's" that is an argument in itself, depending on geo politics, population, investment in renewables, ..etc etc not just the amount of EV's sold (but its often an easier headline to write).

New interconnect (norway to the UK) coming slowly online.
New interconnect being considered from off africa to the uk (with plenty of wrangling there)
Existing interconnect "problems" & 2 way feeds based on demands from linking up systems that mean we are not an energy island but reliant on our neighbours too.
Gas: geo-politics played out every winter from Russia.
Gas: getting rid of the old inflatable gas storage towers because as housing land its more profitable & less ugly.

Nuclear: offline (aged, never worked properly, under repair reactors)
Nuclear: long build times & wrangling in general "nuclear, so good it'll be too cheap to meter" ;) ..remember that?

(NB, did you know that if you have an outdoor gas meter you may be paying as much as 20% less than someone with an indoors gas meter? expansion et al).

We live in the countryside, when we approached any garage that had a hybrid, we didn't say what we wanted but inferred the purchase would be for environmental reasons ...hard sell began on the hybrid, even if a BEV was also available within the dealers portfolio ..sad that.
So we really do rely on cars, as country dwellers, it is very life limiting & expensive, with very little affordable, regular public transport, the amount of people buying hybrids here (improperly advised or thought about is astounding) ..especially with Bull marketing of "self charging" adverts on the % of glib uninformed public who fall for marketing hyperbole

The sales folk also, to a man, spoke to me as the buyer (wrong, it was the wifes purchase as our second EV) ..sad that.

A salesman even tried to convince us that an EV cable (untethered) was a bare minimum of £700 & continued to lie, bs & bluster on EVERYTHING even when confronted with truth, ..their top salesman apparently (I pity those who ran across such dishonesty) ..no-one knew anything about the battery (chemistry), size in terms of energy or anything of value to engage trust or display knowledge, they actively did no want to sell anyone an EV on their books, we'd stifle our knowledge till they hung themselves or sought info openly.

As per the opener to the thread, the garage either misinformed the buyer, didn't ask the right questions, didn't prompt with detail as to the limitations of a battery in a variety of situations, & disappointed the buyer, but did take the car back for investigations which if basic verbal discourse was engaged in, the customer impressed upon as to real world scenario's & read the manual, look on the internet etc, ..may have been avoided (whether the car would be sold is another matter) ..good reputations come from good sales made "custom"

OR, maybe the glamour of a new car meant reading material remained in the glovebox & advice fell on deaf ears ..I don't know, but a mechanic shouldn't have to BS for a salesman to cloud perception / mollycoddle / perform sleight of hand which leaves the customer disgruntled & non-plussed.

(I didn't in my field)


To say hydrogen is excellent solution is not to understand the still mainly on paper technology, nor the investment nor implementation clearly, at this point, I like green hydrogen, hate blue hydrogen & have been watching it for years as a "never never" technology, promised not delivered, it aint green unless you make it green & utilise renewables fully in the production process, otherwise its following the energy heavy nature of the oil industry refinement process ..type thing.

A bit like saying sea water desalination is the solution to water problems, dumping the old stuff back in the sea increases salinity & promotes dead zones as it tends to pollutes the very water you draw upon. (unseen pollution is still pollution)

Hydrogen fill stations in the uk? are there 2 or three now? one is in Wales & utilised by the River simple hydrogen car company which is small light 3 wheeler?, everything that go's against the BIGGER, WIDER design of the automotive industry in general, elsewhere, people start queuing at crazy o-clock for anticipated hydrogen for their vehicles in test areas, fill times once at the pump are also pretty extensive, we tend to charge in the evening at home, or "splash & dash" IF WE MUST, which minimises time "fuelling" ..If you look at where fossil fuel heritage companies are investing part of the mix of charge points (expensive per kWh slowly increasing to match that of petrol & investor dividends) or hydrogen trials, hydrogen you cannot produce at home so it becomes a commodity of control much like oil, ..at least with BEV you have a chance of harvesting solar (if you have favourable siting & the cash to invest) but you cannot home brew hydrogen, we still don't have "mr fusion" nor hover boards either, so micro renewables are a good way forward to supplement miles driven on the cheap as well as being in the here & now.

The "zappi" EV charger is a good rooftop solar harvester diverter for EV (to cite an example)
Some of the better, forward thinking companies for home EV chargers (non solar) have affordable RFID keys so that you can share a charger & bill accordingly from a home charger for others in your street (or profit modestly)

Pretty pointless for hybrids though unless you move in where that kit is already in place.
Your slow charging rate is likely limited by design inertia & possibly the desire (or collusion of interested parties) to push ICE fuel longer, for instance a Twizy, (complete with attached 3 pin plug to charge from) can be upgraded for faster charge rates, at a very low cost, diy able too, ..the twizy is a small BEV battery too, akin to some phev's battery capacity.

You would need to get verification of the associated components limitations but its a possibility to be able to tweak that area, if you talk to the right people. (so do snoop around the internet & maybe set a few well worded subject notification alerts)

Learning the settings to max out any BEV or hybrid regen braking is essential as indicated by the OP's non regen confusion, & your subsequent answer, as is letting the motor brake for you with "last minute" light regular brake footwork IF needed, that change of driving technique through knowledge & experience.

The simple way to get it across is to ensure they have it in a setting that spins power back into the battery when driving on the battery, wherever possible to max out economy if city-centric. (people can get confused at "brake re-gen" as too technical sadly) ..a post it note on the dash maybe.
 
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