As a footnote I am also getting a battery warning light and wondered if the two could be linked .
287e fault code
I have just had a rebuild done on a 2007 r56 Cooper S and am witnessing the following issues.
There is no timing chain rattle and the previous owner had a new timing chain fitted less that 500 miles ago the car idles well and sounds like it should but after driving approx 7 miles the 287e fault code appears and it goes into limp mode we have changed the vanos solenoid for an aftermarket BGA unit and if anything it is a little more lumpy once the code is cleared the cycle starts over again there are no other warning lights such as oil pressure and the cooling system is working perfectly any suggestions where to look next
Peter
There is no timing chain rattle and the previous owner had a new timing chain fitted less that 500 miles ago the car idles well and sounds like it should but after driving approx 7 miles the 287e fault code appears and it goes into limp mode we have changed the vanos solenoid for an aftermarket BGA unit and if anything it is a little more lumpy once the code is cleared the cycle starts over again there are no other warning lights such as oil pressure and the cooling system is working perfectly any suggestions where to look next
Peter
1 - 20 of 30 Posts
if that was in front of me my first job would be work out the battery warning light, the battery is coded to the car , the system as smart charge ,, if look at positive side of battery will see a large red cabe and a small cable ,,, small cable is smart charge monitor, the ecu controls when alternator charges and when free wheels as such,, the battery must be AGM and correct battery listed for car cant fit any battery to them,
when they changed the timing chain did they fit new vanos sprockets as well and if they did were they genuine ones,, if not i have stopped fitting after market vanos sprockets as have had to many go faulty,, i now buy them from peugeot ie 207 vti or gti engines are the same as mini and from psa only cost £58 a pop bmw wanted £360 last time i asked them go figure
when they changed the timing chain did they fit new vanos sprockets as well and if they did were they genuine ones,, if not i have stopped fitting after market vanos sprockets as have had to many go faulty,, i now buy them from peugeot ie 207 vti or gti engines are the same as mini and from psa only cost £58 a pop bmw wanted £360 last time i asked them go figure
Mike many thanks for the reply I think your diagnosis regarding the vanos sprocket is the same as the mechanic who is working on it could you possibly advise on a part number from Peugeot or a description of it to ensure I purchase the correct item and also is it a specialist job to fit the part ?if that was in front of me my first job would be work out the battery warning light, the battery is coded to the car , the system as smart charge ,, if look at positive side of battery will see a large red cabe and a small cable ,,, small cable is smart charge monitor, the ecu controls when alternator charges and when free wheels as such,, the battery must be AGM and correct battery listed for car cant fit any battery to them,
when they changed the timing chain did they fit new vanos sprockets as well and if they did were they genuine ones,, if not i have stopped fitting after market vanos sprockets as have had to many go faulty,, i now buy them from peugeot ie 207 vti or gti engines are the same as mini and from psa only cost £58 a pop bmw wanted £360 last time i asked them go figure
Regards Peter
you want same as 2007 Peugeot 207 gti 175bhp i use truscots in Launceston are really helpful believe they do postal on stuff as well,
below is a reg number that will get you correct part ie its same engine as mini n14,
CA57KYE
i buy pug parts all the time as bmw are just silly money on a lot of parts the France made cars have same of,,, the camshaft bolts are also cheap £2.90 each,
when vanos fails they can fail in different ways i have had a cars that just back fire through inlet before to find the vanos just free wheels,, sorry its taken a while for me to get back but done a 7 day week so far and long hours finding it hard to find time for this
below is a reg number that will get you correct part ie its same engine as mini n14,
CA57KYE
i buy pug parts all the time as bmw are just silly money on a lot of parts the France made cars have same of,,, the camshaft bolts are also cheap £2.90 each,
when vanos fails they can fail in different ways i have had a cars that just back fire through inlet before to find the vanos just free wheels,, sorry its taken a while for me to get back but done a 7 day week so far and long hours finding it hard to find time for this
Mike we have changed the vanos sprocket and checked the timing which looks spot on but are still getting the same code my mechanic now thinks it’s something more like a loose connection or a mis fitted hose any ideas where we might look next this code has only appeared since the engine was rebuilt it seems to run perfectly well for a few miles then the code comes up and it immediately goes on limp mode it also stalls very easily ?you want same as 2007 Peugeot 207 gti 175bhp i use truscots in Launceston are really helpful believe they do postal on stuff as well,
below is a reg number that will get you correct part ie its same engine as mini n14,
CA57KYE
i buy pug parts all the time as bmw are just silly money on a lot of parts the France made cars have same of,,, the camshaft bolts are also cheap £2.90 each,
when vanos fails they can fail in different ways i have had a cars that just back fire through inlet before to find the vanos just free wheels,, sorry its taken a while for me to get back but done a 7 day week so far and long hours finding it hard to find time for this
Any further assistance would be very much appreciated.
Regards Peter
ok so very common problem is with the first camshaft journal inside are two interlocking rings these direct engine oil from head oil gallery to the vanos sprocket while it rotates as such, have seen endless worn out rings on these and when they start to do this trick its when engine gets to running temps ie n14 on old type thermo housing is 117c,,, if you still have the old factory one change it to latest spec 104c genuine housing is a must do job, easy way to tell if its these rings is diagnostics live data get someone to drive the car while watching the timing for vanos see when throws the code,,, if after revs 3k and let off and put throttle on again chance are its those rings not sealing and oil pressure loss to vanos sprocket, or you could ad a can of wyns oil thickener see if it goes away for a while but you cant run car for ever on it as to thick and will effect things in future,,,
its also possible to put camera in the oil filler cap hole engine running and look at rear of vanos and camshaft where joins the end oil control cap and if loads of oil bleeding out then chances are its the fault or part of the fault,,,
one cheap fix short term you could use red loctite thread lock on the outer edges of them rings means removing the camshaft and coat and let go dry before refit this will close the rings more on end of camshafts for a while and will prove its that at fault,, remember to brake cleaner the metal parts off that want to technically bond to the head surface,,, and oil the moving middle part ,, will say this is not really the right fix, right fix is new camshaft in my book as camshaft wears as well as the rings do,, also they are a mare to change
its also possible to put camera in the oil filler cap hole engine running and look at rear of vanos and camshaft where joins the end oil control cap and if loads of oil bleeding out then chances are its the fault or part of the fault,,,
one cheap fix short term you could use red loctite thread lock on the outer edges of them rings means removing the camshaft and coat and let go dry before refit this will close the rings more on end of camshafts for a while and will prove its that at fault,, remember to brake cleaner the metal parts off that want to technically bond to the head surface,,, and oil the moving middle part ,, will say this is not really the right fix, right fix is new camshaft in my book as camshaft wears as well as the rings do,, also they are a mare to change
Thanks once again Mike it sounds very much like the correct diagnosis given the symptoms sound almost exactly mine I don’t fancy changing the camshaft unless it’s a must do is it worth getting the existing one re profiled or is that too old school.ok so very common problem is with the first camshaft journal inside are two interlocking rings these direct engine oil from head oil gallery to the vanos sprocket while it rotates as such, have seen endless worn out rings on these and when they start to do this trick its when engine gets to running temps ie n14 on old type thermo housing is 117c,,, if you still have the old factory one change it to latest spec 104c genuine housing is a must do job, easy way to tell if its these rings is diagnostics live data get someone to drive the car while watching the timing for vanos see when throws the code,,, if after revs 3k and let off and put throttle on again chance are its those rings not sealing and oil pressure loss to vanos sprocket, or you could ad a can of wyns oil thickener see if it goes away for a while but you cant run car for ever on it as to thick and will effect things in future,,,
its also possible to put camera in the oil filler cap hole engine running and look at rear of vanos and camshaft where joins the end oil control cap and if loads of oil bleeding out then chances are its the fault or part of the fault,,,
one cheap fix short term you could use red loctite thread lock on the outer edges of them rings means removing the camshaft and coat and let go dry before refit this will close the rings more on end of camshafts for a while and will prove its that at fault,, remember to brake cleaner the metal parts off that want to technically bond to the head surface,,, and oil the moving middle part ,, will say this is not really the right fix, right fix is new camshaft in my book as camshaft wears as well as the rings do,, also they are a mare to change
kindest regards Peter
Mike would you say do the thermo housing regardless as you mentioned it as must do if so any idea about a part number or recommended supplierThanks once again Mike it sounds very much like the correct diagnosis given the symptoms sound almost exactly mine I don’t fancy changing the camshaft unless it’s a must do is it worth getting the existing one re profiled or is that too old school.
kindest regards Peter
regards Peter
first answer your first question camshafts on these are not reprofile able, can get the oil control rings in the ends from bmw but dont always work ie if to much wear on the journal its sort of a last try before replacement, if were my car would opt for replacement and just know then thats all sorted,, also need to check the head surfaces where the rings sit and that has not been worn away from the old ones rotating due to being worn etc, ie should be no lip in shape of the squared section rings,Mike would you say do the thermo housing regardless as you mentioned it as must do if so any idea about a part number or recommended supplier
regards Peter
and yes deffo a must do is put a latest spec thermo housing on them, also do oil changes and filter at 8k every 12 months another must do in my book, the oil in these engines get a right kicking due to the temps they run at ,, ie early cars were up to 112c-117c spikes common, when all other cars run around 100c at the top, prince engines were designed to run at a point where they get more power less emissions at the point of lean outs,, ie high temps super heats the combustion processes down side dont take much to push them over the edge etc,, hence why they tend to be a 100k engine if lucky before needing a refresh,, keeping the fluids right is a must to help balance this
Mike we have tried the oil stabiliser but the same fault keeps coming up as soon as the car has done about 7 miles we have a new vanos and the adoptions re set other symptoms are that it stalls very easily especially when cold and the fault codes appears on the diagnostics approx 3 miles before it actually goes on limp mode.first answer your first question camshafts on these are not reprofile able, can get the oil control rings in the ends from bmw but dont always work ie if to much wear on the journal its sort of a last try before replacement, if were my car would opt for replacement and just know then thats all sorted,, also need to check the head surfaces where the rings sit and that has not been worn away from the old ones rotating due to being worn etc, ie should be no lip in shape of the squared section rings,
and yes deffo a must do is put a latest spec thermo housing on them, also do oil changes and filter at 8k every 12 months another must do in my book, the oil in these engines get a right kicking due to the temps they run at ,, ie early cars were up to 112c-117c spikes common, when all other cars run around 100c at the top, prince engines were designed to run at a point where they get more power less emissions at the point of lean outs,, ie high temps super heats the combustion processes down side dont take much to push them over the edge etc,, hence why they tend to be a 100k engine if lucky before needing a refresh,, keeping the fluids right is a must to help balance this
Could you possibly advise what the oil pressure would be at idle and also at 2000 rpm
My mechanic seems to have explored every avenue and would appreciate any further advice you can offer.
Regards Peter
above screen shots of data on n14 engines 3000 revs 3.0bar common idle 1bar new engine 1.7bar, 1 bar is 14.7psi, its very common on these engines where past owners have not realized they use oil by design and have not kept oil levels correct or have let run until red warning on dash these engines are damaged and the mains tends to suffer most going forward,, hence why i always tell people before doing a refresh check the basics ie oil pressure being the main one,, and tends to be the middle mains on crank that get it worst as most load in middle and it would seem,, or maybe slight crank imbalance as wear perhaps
Thanks once again Mike my mechanic is checking the oil pressure as i write and his view is that if he finds the oil pressure to be very low then a new oil pump is the most likely solution it is probably the last attempt to fix the car as i have thrown 3 x the value of the car at it in an attempt to "re build" the car back to its original spec. Given all of the work that has been done i still cant help feeling that the problem isnt something fundamentally wrong with the car and it is something like a mis-fitted hose or faulty solenoid etc. We checked the cam for scoring and it was hardly detectable when you ran your nail across it and it doesnt sound "tappety" as i would have expected of a worn unit. Any further help would be much appreciated and would you mind telling me which part of the country you operate from. Regards PeterView attachment 281532 View attachment 281533 View attachment 281534 View attachment 281532 View attachment 281533 View attachment 281534 View attachment 281535
above screen shots of data on n14 engines 3000 revs 3.0bar common idle 1bar new engine 1.7bar, 1 bar is 14.7psi, its very common on these engines where past owners have not realized they use oil by design and have not kept oil levels correct or have let run until red warning on dash these engines are damaged and the mains tends to suffer most going forward,, hence why i always tell people before doing a refresh check the basics ie oil pressure being the main one,, and tends to be the middle mains on crank that get it worst as most load in middle and it would seem,, or maybe slight crank imbalance as wear perhaps
i'm southwest border of devon and cornwall . need to work out the oil pressure when car is hot ie 105c , oil pumps do fail, also on engines that have ever been cooked or run low on oil dont do well,, trouble is many did as when they were new people bought them thinking a brand new car should never use oil etc so never checked them until the red oil light came on and by that time the damage on the mains and big ends and camshafts would of been done,, when bmw state those engine from new use 1 litre to 800-1000 miles or more is normal in their book, I got a honda that dont need oil top up's from service to service.
Thanks once again Mike from your response you don’t sound hopeful that a new oil pump will help a lot if the major elements are worn, both big and little ends have been done and as far as I am aware the compression is good as I mentioned the camshaft looks in decent Knick bud maybe a combination of a lot of factors when my mechanic has checked the oil pressure I will post the results.i'm southwest border of devon and cornwall . need to work out the oil pressure when car is hot ie 105c , oil pumps do fail, also on engines that have ever been cooked or run low on oil dont do well,, trouble is many did as when they were new people bought them thinking a brand new car should never use oil etc so never checked them until the red oil light came on and by that time the damage on the mains and big ends and camshafts would of been done,, when bmw state those engine from new use 1 litre to 800-1000 miles or more is normal in their book, I got a honda that dont need oil top up's from service to service.
Once again many thanks for taking the time to respond it is much appreciated.
Peter
i see more bad results with oil faults on these cars than good to be honest hence why i always say before doing refresh must know the crank is all good to begin with,
Mike thanks once again we think we have found the problem but am not sure how to fix it we apppear to have a blockage/obstruction in the oilways when the engine is warm we are getting the following oil pressure readingsi see more bad results with oil faults on these cars than good to be honest hence why i always say before doing refresh must know the crank is all good to begin with,
8000rpm 40psi
3000rpm 55psi
So we think the oil isn’t getting to the vanos unit and also why it sounds a bit tappety
Do you know of a method of cleaning the oilways .
Thanks in anticipation of any advice you may offer Regards Peter
oil pressure relief valve perhaps strange it drops with higher revs , bloody cars i tell ya i have hours of no so fun trying to work out what causes what on all kinds of stuff,, the prince engines were the beginning of these new tech engines light low emissions and made at a price shared with psa and bmw etc ,, could also be wear in head and camshafts and the high pressure at higher revs pushes past them,,, known problem is oil filter housing, another on front of block between the head and block oil non return valve, pic below
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Thanks for the reply Mike we feel as though we are running out of options with this car I am going to speak to the engine builder to see if he has any suggestions I can’t help thinking that we have blocked or partially blocked oil galleries do you know of any method of cleaning them out in situ.
Regards Peter
Regards Peter
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