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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is there any reason to be hopeful that the Cooper S has suspension components that vary technically from the Cooper & ONE ?.

I know that most countries will get the SS+ as standard. But are the struts/springs/anti-roll bars any different.

Most people here will know why the question is being asked.

cheers

:)
 

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Great Question

Basil

This is a great question - I'm very interested to see how the 25 Works Club Sport cars will handle for the same reasons - They will have modified suspension components and if all 25 are aok then some things may become clearer:) -

If you happen to be at the GP see if you can spot anybody applying extra lock :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Great Question

Racer said:
Basil

This is a great question - I'm very interested to see how the 25 Works Club Sport cars will handle for the same reasons - They will have modified suspension components and if all 25 are aok then some things may become clearer:) -

If you happen to be at the GP see if you can spot anybody applying extra lock :D
ha ha.... I doubt if I'll have time, but a few members here are from Melbourne so I daresay they will be on the look out.

I guess replacement after-market springs and dampers is certainly an option if indeed this is the cause of the problem. Bit drastic though on a new car.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the Cooper S had modified suspension components, and that is the essence of my original question.

cheers
 

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I woulnd't have thought that dufferent springs or dampers could solve the problem.

The drift/pull is likely to be down to a number of things - including sensitivity to the road camber has been the problem in many cars (including ones that I've test-driven).

On those cars that do *pull*, it's a problem with the suspension and steering geometry; it doesn't affect every car, so it's not a fundamental design fault.

What my money would be on is a combination of two things - we have an extremely sensitive steering set-up, and a car built to a range of tolerances. It'll handle fine when everything is perfectly set-up, but that happens so very rarely in any manufacturing process. As things get towards the limits of tolerance - but still within what were thought to be acceptable norms - the steering sensitivity translates a few tenths of a millimetre into a big pulll at the wheel.

There was a rumour going round that no sports suspension plus car suffered from the pulling problem - is that actually right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Sorry - nothing personal

OK, time to get tough. :)

Obviously my question hinges around the veer/drift/pull area, BUT I don't want this thread turning into a "pull" debate, there are enough of those already.

Apologise all round if offence is drawn from this, but tough titties !!



:)
 

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Hey - you started it, talking about solving the "problem" with after-market dampers! :p

Honest answer - I think you've already identified the key differences between SSP and standard suspension - roll-bars, springs and dampers. These might all be bolt-on bits; it might mean that there are new subframe assemblies for them to bolt onto. I'd be surprised if it was radically diferent. I'd also be surprised if it involved a different suspension geometry. But it might fix things. Has anyone with SSP experienced "the problem"?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Viscount Charles said:
Hey - you started it, talking about solving the "problem" with after-market dampers! :p

Honest answer - I think you've already identified the key differences between SSP and standard suspension - roll-bars, springs and dampers. These might all be bolt-on bits; it might mean that there are new subframe assemblies for them to bolt onto. I'd be surprised if it was radically diferent. I'd also be surprised if it involved a different suspension geometry. But it might fix things. Has anyone with SSP experienced "the problem"?
:)

I agree, but even if it was a little different, it may save the day as far as "the problem" (ha ha ha) is concerned.

Anyone out there got some cold hard facts on the S suspension set-up as differs from the Cooper with SS+ ?

and ok, I'll concede if you want to turn "the problem" into a good pull thats ok by me........



:)
 

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Hmmm. Just done what we should have done a while back, and looked at the brochures - for the S and the base models.

Some interesting bits. Assuming the brochures are accurate, the wheelbase is the same length: front wheelcentre to back wheelcentre - no surprises there.

But the Cooper S front wheels are 7mm closer together(centre of tyre to centre of tyre), and it's 6mm narrower between the wheels at the back.

The S is 8mm taller than the Cooper, but the same height as the ONE -probably down to tyre/wheel differences. But the differences in the width of the wheelbase might point to different geometry on the S, and not just bolt-on bits as I'd thought.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Well Done sir

Viscount Charles said:
Hmmm. Just done what we should have done a while back, and looked at the brochures - for the S and the base models.

Some interesting bits. Assuming the brochures are accurate, the wheelbase is the same length: front wheelcentre to back wheelcentre - no surprises there.

But the Cooper S front wheels are 7mm closer together(centre of tyre to centre of tyre), and it's 6mm narrower between the wheels at the back.

The S is 8mm taller than the Cooper, but the same height as the ONE -probably down to tyre/wheel differences. But the differences in the width of the wheelbase might point to different geometry on the S, and not just bolt-on bits as I'd thought.
Good work Viscount...... I remember now that BruceK mentioned this somewhere else. And the offset for the wheels is the same as the Cooper, or they'd need two different 17" S-spokes for the Cooper and Cooper S. In fact completely different wheels for the two models which would be impractical.

Now we are getting somewhere. My frown is turning into a mild smile.

Well done that man, keep up the good work.

:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Paul_Mullett said:
All the 'S' documentation I have states it has 'sports suspension plus' and doesn't mention anything about it being different from the Cooper SS+.
damn....a damper :) in the works....... if the wheels have the same offset and the track widths are different to the Cooper, something must be ummm different.....what am I missing here.
 

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Either one of the brochures is wrong, or there's a geometry difference between the S and the Cooper/One.

I think we can discount the differences in wheels - the original brochure is almost certainly giving measurements from the ONE on 15" wheels; whilst a different offset in the 16" wheels might show up as different track widths measured wheelcentre to wheel centre, why is that difference bigger at the front than the rear??

The brochures make no mention of the different crank, pistons or valve material that sets the S engine apart from the Cooper engine - so silence on the part of the (skimpy) brochures is no evidence of the two suspension setups being the same. Perhaps someone could get some official clarification?
 

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I'm not saying anything from the brochures, but from the technical information I have had from BMW/MINI for the Cooper S and the Cooper. That DOES mention the engine modifications, and also says the Cooper S has 'sports suspension plus'. I cannot see anywhere in that where it mentions any difference in the suspension set up from the other models.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Viscount Charles said:
Either one of the brochures is wrong, or there's a geometry difference between the S and the Cooper/One.

I think we can discount the differences in wheels - the original brochure is almost certainly giving measurements from the ONE on 15" wheels; whilst a different offset in the 16" wheels might show up as different track widths measured wheelcentre to wheel centre, why is that difference bigger at the front than the rear??

The brochures make no mention of the different crank, pistons or valve material that sets the S engine apart from the Cooper engine - so silence on the part of the (skimpy) brochures is no evidence of the two suspension setups being the same. Perhaps someone could get some official clarification?
Well Paul was doing a hush hush Cooper S thing at the weekend I think, for some new pictures on Tuesday, whether he got some more info on the differences in the S remain to be seen, but not according to his post above. I've just spent 20 minutes studying under bonnet shots of the cooper and Cooper S, and there is certainly no discernable difference in the suspension turrets as far as I could tell. Maybe i'm just clutching at straws here.

Hmmmm.......
 

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The setup between the Cooper and the Cooper S, both with SSP, may be the same. The setup between the S with SSP and the Cooper/ONE will not be.

There's a 6 or 7 millimetre difference between the width of the two model's wheelbases, if the manuals are right. That could easily be down to slight differences in some of the suspension parts - and there are *bound* to be differences between the standard and SSP spring and damper mounts. I also read on one site of the Cooper S having strengthened Mcpherson struts - although this could be interpreted as the spring&damper assembly rather than any of the parts they bolt onto.

I have no idea whether these are exactly the same parts as they use on the Cooper with SSP. There are bound to be a number of parts which are different due to the known, trumpetted changes between the S and the Cooper - I'm no expert, but with different engines (with a lot more HP) and different gearboxes, I'd have thought the two models are likely to have different differentials, different drive shafts etc and maybe different subframe assemblies for all that lot to bolt on to - none of which BMW advertise as special features of the S, 'cos they're not that special, but it could make a difference to the way the car handles. Heck if BMW can get away with blaming road camber, I think I'm entitled to a bit of leeway on possible differences between the models across the range.

Have any of the SSP-equipped Coopers reported geometry "issues"? ;)

And what else might be the reason for the wheelbase differences if there is *no* difference between the models?
 

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I will have to look into this further (dig out my old docs) but...

As far as I am aware/can recall...

The One suspension is different to the Cooper.

The Cooper AS STANDARD has 'sports suspension' which introduces a rear anti-roll bar, and as far as I can recall, strengthened front suspension. The springs/dampers MAY OR MAY NOT be firmer (I will have to check) but I think they are.

Then you have the Sports Suspension Plus.

Optional extra on the Cooper, standard fitment on the S.

This has a larger(strengthened) rear anti-roll bar, sits lower (I believe) and has firmer dampers and springs. It also has other strengthening at the front.

As far as all the documentition I have indicates, the S and a Cooper with SS+ will have the same suspension set up.

I'll try to get some time to read over my stuff to see if there is any documentation that indicates otherwise.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Paul_Mullett said:
I will have to look into this further (dig out my old docs) but...

As far as I am aware/can recall...

The One suspension is different to the Cooper.

The Cooper AS STANDARD has 'sports suspension' which introduces a rear anti-roll bar, and as far as I can recall, strengthened front suspension. The springs/dampers MAY OR MAY NOT be firmer (I will have to check) but I think they are.

Then you have the Sports Suspension Plus.

Optional extra on the Cooper, standard fitment on the S.

This has a larger(strengthened) rear anti-roll bar, sits lower (I believe) and has firmer dampers and springs. It also has other strengthening at the front.

As far as all the documentition I have indicates, the S and a Cooper with SS+ will have the same suspension set up.

I'll try to get some time to read over my stuff to see if there is any documentation that indicates otherwise.
Taa...... I mean thanks very much.

good grief.....nearly 1.00am.....catch up with this tomorrow. thanks all.
 

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I noticed that one fix for the thing we're not mentioning anymore was new spring seats, which will of course be different on a car with SSP.
 

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I think you'll find the left drift/pull affects the One, the standard Cooper and the SSplus Cooper, and cars with 15" and 16" wheels.

Regarding the suspension - it's the standard sports suspension that sits lower than the One. The sports plus is not lower than the sports. Indeed, according the the US Mini site, the Cooper S with 16" wheels sits higher than the Cooper with 15" wheels, presumably because the tyres are slightly larger in diameter.
 
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