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The Hartge Experience
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1,032 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys,

I know my mcs is next march, but im planning ahead here, and have been looking at the hartge/bbr conversions. I wondered what people thought between the two? whats better, why etc? Also the john cooper works is a possibilty, tho i cant c y i should spend the extra when it produces such similar power to the hartge??? Is the performance difference really good over standard? And how is the fuel effected? i.e. well badly? and reliabilty?

Many thanks,

Rob
 

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Half a dent
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1,413 Posts
Like you i'm looking for an upgrade but if I can get my hands on a new works kit I will. This is because it is an obviously sellable, insurable and reliable upgrade. However I have investigated the BBR and GGR kits. I have to say BBR in particluar were vey helpful when I telephoned them. In view of the fact I have a 170bhp MCSC i was keen to discover what the increase in power on the standard upgrade was. Both companies were fairly vague. I am not sure what is responsible for the 163-170bhp hike so it could be replacing the ECU and supercharger/pulley may negate this +7bhp,so for instance the BBR 220bhp kit would still be 220bhp not 227bhp (either way it is still a bargain). I asked "a company" what would happen if for example the gearbox went in my car and BMW could blame the power increase. They said that they would reverse the mods and tow the car to BMW!
Interesting thread! :)
 

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The Hartge Experience
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1,032 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Cheers.

I just think, tho the package looks good, the bbr/hartge looks amazing value next to the jcw, i.e. a few grand saving. I think over the period of the warranty, I wouldnt spend 2grand on things going wrong, so just seems better value to take 220bhp instead??

Tho i like the idea of the cylinder head conversion on the jcw due to heat....
 

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R53 Turbo!
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1,931 Posts
Ok, deep breath, here goes ;)

The warranty issues with any engine conversion (including JCW) will always be a hot debate on here and no amount of lively discussion will ever give a definitive answer or conclusion, in almost all cases what everyone says is very true and relevant to them, so...

I had the Hartge installed after 4k miles, gave the car time to be run in and iron out any niggly warranty issues.
At the time, circa Nov 2002 i was the first in Scotland to have the conversion, it was the only conversion available at the time.
The Hartge, in my opinion (versus the BBR) is a quite aggressive mod, providing you keep the revs up you'll have constant power and it was fantastic fun to drive, see my report in the review section (i think it's still there)
Having since changed to the BBR at 18k miles i find the car more responsive and less in your face, i'm not saying it's any less powerfull or better but a bit more refined. It just seems more balanced, but given the amount of work carried out on the head with larger valves etc i'm not surprised.

The Hartge is TUV approved whereas BBR rely on their racing and in house technology, One thing over the Hartge, your car's ECU is mapped on the move whilst the Hartge mapping is simply installed, i'm not making any assumptions here, just quoting the fact.

It all boils down to what each individual feesl comfortable with and what your relationship with your dealer is.
My car has covered 28k miles and i continue to get great service from my dealer, my car is due it's 2nd TLC service in 500 miles time and i don't anticipate any problems, even though i am supplying the high spec brake fluid. They will change the fluid but not charge me for doing it.
 

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www.minicoopers.org
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507 Posts
read my Hitec conversion very carefully and you could come to germany, get a conversion , get TÜV and on the way back you can drive the nürburgring...

and still be a winner money-wise.. :D
 

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266 Posts
I am looking into getting my Cooper tuned, and have spoken to several people about this, and have now decided that the JCW conversion is the best all round kit.

Although it might not be the most powerfull, for peace of mind its better.

Both from a warranty perspective and resale.

If you trade your car into a BMW dealership, its highly likley that they will not take a car that has a Hartge/bbr conversion. And if they do, they will have to rip it all out before it goes on the fourcourt. this also goes for other performance modifications such as exhaust filters.

Also with the JCW conversion, you will get a large proportion of the investment back (more if you sell it privatley) where as with a Hartge/BBR conversion you would only get the money back if you sold privatley.

So in the long run, the JCW kit could work out to be cheaper.

just my thoughts. :D

Rob
 

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R53 Turbo!
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1,931 Posts
aphix said:
I am looking into getting my Cooper tuned, and have spoken to several people about this, and have now decided that the JCW conversion is the best all round kit.

Although it might not be the most powerfull, for peace of mind its better.

Both from a warranty perspective and resale.

If you trade your car into a BMW dealership, its highly likley that they will not take a car that has a Hartge/bbr conversion. And if they do, they will have to rip it all out before it goes on the fourcourt. this also goes for other performance modifications such as exhaust filters.

Also with the JCW conversion, you will get a large proportion of the investment back (more if you sell it privatley) where as with a Hartge/BBR conversion you would only get the money back if you sold privatley.

So in the long run, the JCW kit could work out to be cheaper.

just my thoughts. :D

Rob
Not looking to be negative here, but, the cooper is just not worth modifying, the EVO shootout actually showed the JCW Cooper to be slower than a standard cooper :(

My dealer will happily take my modded car in exchange :) and in fact offered me a decent figure :D

As for resale values, it's too early to comment and there are no figures to show to prove this point, as i said earlier, whatever suits the individual is correct.
If you think the Works kit is good value for money etc then no amount of discussion will prove any different to that person.

All i can say is i've covered almost 25k fun miles with my engine converted
 

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Hey Bonnie,

I was just going on what 2 dealers have told me down here. I havent tried personally :D

I drove a JCW kitted Cooper the other day, it had the additional Cone Filter, Complete exhaust and header but did seem quicker than my Coop.

I suppose its all down to personal prefernce. But at 20 i refuse to pay silly money on insurance for a S...

I think the JCW conversion is overpriced for what it is (and therefore not good value for money at all), but if the vast majority of that can be clawed back when and if i traded it in nextyear then the intial investment of the JCW kit isnt as hard to swallow.

On the same note, i think the Mini Sport 145BHP conversion for the Cooper is a far better option than the JCW kit, as its the same kind of money... but if i have the worry at the back of my mind then its not worth the stress..

But this thread isnt about me, and my problems so i will shut up now :D

Rob
 

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266 Posts
Rob,

Have you driven any of the 3 yet, i have driven both a stadard S, and Hartge cnverted car back in January. The Hartge was such a laugh...

I havent driven a JCWS yet, so dont know how that compares.

Do Birds have a demo available? www.birds.uk.com they where dead helpfull when i wanted one in January..

Rob
 

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R53 Turbo!
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1,931 Posts
aphix said:
Hey Bonnie,
I was just going on what 2 dealers have told me down here. I havent tried personally :D
But this thread isnt about me, and my problems so i will shut up now :D
Rob
No harm done or intended, this question pops up all the time and the warranty issues always get raised etc

What was the topic again :p :eek:
 

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I should be doing a group buy on West Tuning conversions in the next few days. This conversion raises the bhp to 210bhp - if you add an exhaust and manifold it will raise it to 225bhp. The price will be around £725+vat - Bargain Ay?

It was posted up this morning but has since been removed by the moderators as the group buy offered more than one product which was seen to be unfair to Mini2 advertisers and sponsors. I am currently trying to resolve this as we speak and will hopefully have the group buy started again shortly.

Cheers, LB.
 

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R53 Turbo!
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1,931 Posts
Leccy_Blue said:
I should be doing a group buy on West Tuning conversions in the next few days. This conversion raises the bhp to 210bhp - if you add an exhaust and manifold it will raise it to 225bhp. The price will be around £725+vat - Bargain Ay?
Cheers, LB.
Surely the exhaust and manifold is not included in your quoted price??
 

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Bonnie Scotland said:
Surely the exhaust and manifold is not included in your quoted price??
No, No, No. :p

That price includes new supercharger pulley and belt, re-map and before and after rolling road tuning. It has still got to be the best bhp per £ you can get though.

If you buy the conversion it will entitle you to a discount on the exhaust.

Cheers, LB.
 

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The Hartge Experience
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1,032 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
The good thing is, BBR and Hartge aka Birds, are both well near me. Have emailed em both, to see what response i get. Due to the pullley being different, are the belts easy to obtain?
 
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