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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys, apologies if this has been covered before but I am struggling to find out the details on what part I need for my car after the Timing Chain grenades itself, the head and the lower engine block.

I have been on RealOEM, spoken to my local stealer (who has been a tremendous help over the years to be fair) and hunted the internet for a solution.

About three months ago, my Cooper S N14 suffered catastrophic failure and as it snapped, it not only bent valves on both inlet and outlet, but stripped the teeth on the bottom pulley and smashed the casing to pieces.

The main block with the pistons is (or appears to be) absolutely unscathed so I would like to keep that so I have continuity in the history as the car has only done 77k with a full history and lots of receipts and stamps and oil changes etc. I had been doing the car up when this happened, in as much as I had removed all of the bodykit and resprayed it body colour, along with respraying all of the interior trim with body colour paint rather than the silver chequered stuff that it came with.

It has had audio upgrades, dial upgrades, upper trim upgrades, roof rails - the list goes on, so I really want to keep it and enjoy it when I finally have it back on the road.

Anyway, the issue I have is that I cannot seen to find a part number for the smashed lower casing that connects to the block and allows the sump to fix to it.

I have found so many different pieces that look right but I have no idea if they are correct. This issue here is that I cannot get a look at the piece in question to actually take its number down and all of the breakers I talk to tell me that they are all the same parts (which I doubt very much...) I need to know more about this piece so I can make an informed decision as to where to go next because I really don't want to fit a second hand engine because its not right for the history and second, you never know what pain you are purchasing. Plus the massive extra cost....!

Anyone out there in Mini land that has any idea of the details to which I refer, or even better still has a used N14 engine and can spare the part Im talking about (renumeration offered of course) plus anyone with parts experience that can tell me if there is anything I should be aware of etc.

Thank you in advance guys...

Cameron
 

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are you talking about the crankshaft cradle its where all the mains sit and run full length of motor,, if it is and only the end alloy piece has been worn due to chain lath would not worry about it done many with this after oil pump chain and timing chain fails and marks it up some mars were 4 mm deep it dont effect anything, reason it does this is the bottom sprockets wear faster than the others and common to wear in to the case ,, what you must do oil pump i would buy a new one it will most likely be on last legs as the alloy that over time has got in to it ,, £180 neo brothers on ebay , if were me while head off do pull pistons check crank for wear if non new big ends and better piston rings link below for good rings sets.
Set of Piston Rings for Mini Cooper & Cooper S 1.4 & 1.6 16v N12, N14, N16 & N18 | eBay
these are 3 piece oil rings better on these engines than factory single piece ones
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi there Mike, many thanks for that!

Yes the head is off and has been cleaned, de coked, new valves lapped and new oil seals.

As I have gotten down to this part of the engine the piston tops have been checked but will need to come out if I am changing the cradle as you call it. I shall as a matter of course change the oil pump and the rings so I am expecting those anyway. I will have to change the crankshaft bearings anyway soI am already in the realms of an engine rebuild.....
As for the cradle, I may not have made myself clear but I need a new one as when the timing chain snapped it literally smashed the end to pieces so I have nothing there!! Plus it stripped the main sprocket...

Its a bloody mess!!!

If anyone knows where I can get a crankshaft cradle that would be a massive help.....
 

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Hi there Mike, many thanks for that!

Yes the head is off and has been cleaned, de coked, new valves lapped and new oil seals.

As I have gotten down to this part of the engine the piston tops have been checked but will need to come out if I am changing the cradle as you call it. I shall as a matter of course change the oil pump and the rings so I am expecting those anyway. I will have to change the crankshaft bearings anyway soI am already in the realms of an engine rebuild.....
As for the cradle, I may not have made myself clear but I need a new one as when the timing chain snapped it literally smashed the end to pieces so I have nothing there!! Plus it stripped the main sprocket...

Its a bloody mess!!!

If anyone knows where I can get a crankshaft cradle that would be a massive help.....
gotcha as far i know the n16 16b ie any 1,6 cooper is same as the turbo one , as the crank journals and bearings are both the same,, they are not same as the n12 14b engine these have smaller crank journals below link for n16
 

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also any psa Peugeot Citroen thp engine is same as mini i have interchanged engines and heads, i tend to find a cheap psa donner when have a failure with the mini stuff as cheaper its same engines
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
You sir are an absolute marvel!!

I shall see if I can find one without the crank

Result!!
 

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Hey Mike, just out of curiosity, isn't the N16 and LCI model?
its still prince engine they never changed engine until way later , prince engines are made at hams hall in uk joint project with bmw and psa, psa done the bottom end bmw were more heads and timing chain and injection and vvt etc , pretty sure the only different between the turbo bottom and the 1.6 prince engines was the pistons maybe the conrods , like i do know the 1.4 prince engines are totally different the cranks are smaller and deffo dont fit, i might have one from a Peugeot 308 1.6 vti its same block as such , but i'm off work for a month at least at mo so cant strip the motor as its a complete bottom end at mo, if you dont have any luck then free free to try me again on it might be up to doing a bit by then,
 

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will add when i say n16 i should say n12 16b engines below linst of psa that is same engine as n14
1.6 litre turbocharged (PSA)[edit]
The turbocharged 1.6 L unit adds gasoline direct injection and has special low-pressure die-cast heads. It has an 85.8 mm (3.38 in) stroke for a total of 1,598 cc (1.6 L) of displacement.

At first, there were two versions on offer - the THP150 and THP175, also known as the EP6DT and EP6DTS respectively within Peugeot. The first was later updated as EP6CDT and also a THP163, EP6CDTM.[9] There is also EP6CDT MD - with lowered compression ratio.

For the THP150 maximum torque is 240 N⋅m (177 lb⋅ft) at 1400 rpm, remaining flat to 5000 rpm. Power output is 150 PS (110 kW; 148 hp) at 5500 rpm.

Applications:

For the THP163 maximum torque is 240 N⋅m (177 lb⋅ft) at 1400 rpm, remaining flat to 5000 rpm. Power output is 165 PS (121 kW; 163 hp) at 5500 rpm.

Applications:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
You sir are a little bit of a genius...!

I have on another forum just been told that BMW call this a BedPlate and it shouldn't be swapped with other blocks as its machined for the carne that goes in at the factory.

What do you reckon?

Also, you say that you meant an N12 16b engine code would be okay?

Regards

Cameron
 

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You sir are a little bit of a genius...!

I have on another forum just been told that BMW call this a BedPlate and it shouldn't be swapped with other blocks as its machined for the carne that goes in at the factory.

What do you reckon?

Also, you say that you meant an N12 16b engine code would be okay?

Regards

Cameron
thats the golden question yes at factory these pieces are matched to each other supposedly, but they all come off same milling machines with same programmed tolerance, just think bmw/psa have built at same factory best part 10 million on these engine i say as a guess cant see they would have time for someone like honda do installing deferent size mains to match the block to bed plate ,, honda at their engine plants do the above 1 guy builds a engine up and matches the bearing so even try and rebuild a honda engine there will be a number of different sizes 0.005mm to 0.040mm , bmw dont do this mini dont do this and psa dont do this ,, your moment of truth will be when install the crankshaft and pre torque the head down ie plenty of oil on crank and ensure the crank rotates before doing the stretch side of the bolts ,
this all said i have swapped cranks and plates on other stuff and ended well, on vauxhall 2.0cdti engines they bend the crank and distort the block as dont have base plate design and always need line boring of the bearing sites
 

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will add theres a lot car makers say should not do that engine builders ignore and ends well , thinking about it a main stealer never rebuilds a engine always replaces it ,, main dealers make money out of selling engines so any thing that can be used to prevent repair perhaps a good business practice in their book ,
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hey Mike, to be honest, I kind of had the same thought myself but my knowledge about parts is limited. I can certainly rebuild the engine myself and know that all will be well but kind of always need guidance with what parts I need.....
I thought to myself that all of the units are cast separately then machine separately before a tech builds it up to accepting a crank and thus mates an alien block with an alien bed.

Does that make sense?

Cameron
 

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You sir are a little bit of a genius...!

I have on another forum just been told that BMW call this a BedPlate and it shouldn't be swapped with other blocks as its machined for the carne that goes in at the factory.

What do you reckon?

Also, you say that you meant an N12 16b engine code would be okay?

Regards

Cameron
It was me on the other forum, like was said, these are line bored, I haven't said attempting to use one wouldn't work, just that it is at your own risk, people go about things in different ways, several might work, some might work a little differently, some might last longer.... or not etc, it all depends on what you're looking at, looking for, what you can or will do about stuff and how you do perhaps, it's not too dissimilar to cam caps, except for those they themselves are the bearing surface, people might swap them, whether they check stuff or not is anyone's guess ;O) Much of the stuff here perhaps won't be coming apart to review either, one has to consider some rather different motives imo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Oh okay!!!

Small world!!

Mike, I will be happy to listen to your recommendations without quarter, please if you could advise what to do I will be able to take a learned point of view into the repair.

I trust that makes sense as I am currently scratching my head!!!


As always, you are a star and I appreciate anything you can give me advice on.

Best regards

Cameron
 

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at factory they are line bored so base plate and block put together and a long bore rod goes through all the mains so cut to a precise tolerance yes totally are and in perfect world you would throw your engine away just in case the few million pound machines did not cut straight after given computer measurements to run with,, ie one blue print of those engines so in theory any engine made from same factory with those measurements should be a copy of the next and next ones etc, also these prince engines due to having a very strong block and base plate set up dont tend to distort,,
also add to this theory i can order new std bearings for n14 n18 n1216b engines i get same bearings same sizes have done hundreds just fitted new bearings as cranks dont tend to wear much as very hard except if heat or oil damages and never had a car back with any crankshaft issues yet in well over 10 years,
might just be best you find a broken n14 engine and rebuild that for piece of mind and to be sure as dont want to steer anyone down a path thats has a few unknowns to it that until offer things up guess wont know for sure , i have changed out base plates in the past even had a number of engine blocks all mismatched and built engine's out of them ie psa stuff that became mini bmw stuff at the end all inter change for me and what i had done to them, like said moment of truth will be when site the crank and do the first stage of big end bearing bolts etc, dont forget the oil feed holes to bearings must line up seen some one mis that cherry and ended up screwing the motor,
 

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Hey Mike, to be honest, I kind of had the same thought myself but my knowledge about parts is limited. I can certainly rebuild the engine myself and know that all will be well but kind of always need guidance with what parts I need.....
I thought to myself that all of the units are cast separately then machine separately before a tech builds it up to accepting a crank and thus mates an alien block with an alien bed.

Does that make sense?

Cameron
at honda they have a tech who mirco;s each journal matched , these engine dont its one bearing fits all get what you get and is machined in a mirror type so theory all journals are ground same all line bore is set with these clearances as well , the proof in that is when order bearings std bearings set all fit the same n14 n18 n12 16b engines in fact they also fit some other stuff as that bottom end has been is psa cars for a long time ,, you might be able to find a blown up n14 that bottom end is all good then just do a refresh to it pistons and rings and big end and end , will same a load of stress in long run,
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Hy Mike, you reference Honda, might I assume you could be working anywhere near Supermarine?
 

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Hy Mike, you reference Honda, might I assume you could be working anywhere near Supermarine?
i work all kinds been in trade since left school at 16 these days it seems i get all the engine jobs no one else wants to play with worked at a fe psa garages a long the way and vag garages , the honda stuff stems back to bikes mainly, honda and Aston martin and mclaren etc etc all hand build engines and are very much would never think of doing a mismatch of such parts , where the prince engines are made as a mas produce with bigger margins , i rebuilt a number of honda engines over the years found cant buy a std set of bearings from after market as each journal at factory has a bearing set for that journal as per below


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Honda Bearing color to thickness chart for everyone who loves using OEM bearings
I posted this in All Motor also but did not think the turbo guys would go into that forum to see it. I get so many questions on this, that if we get a FAQs page going, we can start it with this information

Here is a chart of Honda B series bearing thickness by color. To calculate actual bearing clearance, use the following formula:

BC = IDBT – ODC – (2 x BT)

BC = bearing clearance
IDBT = inside diameter of bearing tunnel (housing bore)
ODC = outside diameter of crank journal
BT = bearing thickness

<U>Main Bearing thickness by color</U>
Blue 2.013-2.010 mm 0.0793”- 0.0791”
Black 2.010-2.007 mm 0.0791”- 0.0790”
Brown 2.007-2.004 mm 0.0790”- 0.0789”
Green 2.004-2.001 mm 0.0789”- 0.0788”
Yellow 2.001-1.998 mm 0.0788”- 0.0787”
Pink 1.998-1.995 mm 0.0787”- 0.0785”
Red 1.995-1.992 mm 0.0785”- 0.0783”

<U>Rod bearing thickness by color</U>
Blue 1.510-1.507 mm 0.0594”- 0.0593”
Black 1.507-1.504 mm 0.0593”- 0.0592”
Brown 1.504-1.501 mm 0.0592”- 0.0591”
Green 1.501-1.498 mm 0.0591”- 0.0590”
Yellow 1.498-1.495 mm 0.0590”- 0.0589”
Pink 1.495-1.492 mm 0.0589”- 0.0587”
Red 1.492-1.489 mm 0.0587”- 0.0586”
these prince engines have one size std and this size is shared with all its 1.6 prince engines easy to rebuild buy set of baring and way you go,
with engine hand built and journals have a man handled and fitted bearings there is possible of 5 different plus sizes approx 0.005mm on each step up this due to how they ground and polished the cranks , and only way with these engines is order from main dealer on engine number they send a pack with all the different colours ie sizes that then you must work out which goes where etc,,, the prince engines are either better machined most likely or the tolerance is bigger ie they will run between 0.0020mm and zero as such and be ok for number of miles perhaps
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Ahh, no. Supermarine is a pace kind of local to me.

Its where the UK Honda plant is.

Apologies if we got our wires crossed.

I actually live between the Honda plant in swindon and the BMW MINI plant in Oxford.

In fact I served my apprenticeship there so am very familiar with that site...!!!
 
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