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Discussion Starter #1
Hi everyone slow to start here I guess i signed up quite some time ago. I guess I never took advantage of the better qualities of this website in earlier years. I was out sucking a ton of air into my r56 turbo charged cooper across the Midwest and Southwest. god bless everyone here and everyone's spirit be that of someone that does not quit.
I am getting ready to attempt to install my timing chain again and want to know if I have overlooked anything. As far as the timing goes? It's a mini cooper with about 110 thousand miles on it. It suffered a water leak at the hard pipe at which time it was driven for about two and half hours. At that point during the summer it made it to a mini cooper dealer. They looked it over and decided that the turbo had failed(turned out to be a stuck actuator). Anyway having the car towed back to my garage I decided to pull the head and change the gasket. I know what happens during water leaks.
I took the head off and the block still had water that was probably why it made it up there before suffering turbo failure. so during the summer I bought a lot of parts for the car. New borg warner turbo,head gasket, arp bolts(which was a good call), all new coolant related components,timing components,tools to do the jobs. My problem at that point was a head gasket I believe that was too thin and wondered why they would list it in a r56 category for a product to buy which was .70 sized head gasket. SOOO I wrecked the valves. Now it may be just that. but would like to know how to install a timing chain and a few more timing chain related questions.
Lets start with this question. Does crankshaft endplay occur in a mini cooper to a degree that it would effect the tightening of the crank bolt and loosen up that same bolt once the car is started and is there a tool for the mini cooper to check endplay if that is the case? If that is not a common occurance at 110 thousand miles to make a difference that would also be helpful if someone said that?
 

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crankshaft should have no more than a 000.10mm of thrust play ie crack in and out and same if lever the pulley end up and down, there should be no play in the locking of crankshaft ie the pin that slides in to the flywheel should fit tight as no movement of crank in either direction and all 4 pistons are at same height in the bores,
head gasket are done in notches ie the gaskets have 1 to 4 notches or holes in the tab that is on side of them, 1 being thin and 4 being 4 over sizes, if you had head skimmed the machine shop would know how much as been removed, if dont know then always go for 4 notch gasket,
the timing of these engines is very complicated the first time you do one and must be done correctly, and a preload must be put on the chain before tightening the cams and crank bolts always do the crank bolt first, the preload on the chain must mimic the spring load from tensioner failure to do this will throw timing out, i've seen garages try a few times and then ring me up to come show them before, also before doing up the final stretch on bolts must rotae the engine 4 times and then relock it with the tools if not just fall in to place try again
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Why thankyou very much Sir. I do have the 120 sized head gasket machine shop removed .006 to make the .012 I was running a .70 head gasket the first time. I used advanced knowledge some of which worked against me(wrong head gasket size it should be .90 the first time if no head work was done. Which was not had the car sense brand new.
Back to that problem and the cascading effect that took hold of my engine from that LATER.
thank you for answering the question about end play.
Next detailed question. between home remedies and parts replacement: The intake camshaft shares space with a vanos which is an ornate spiral spring. Some people have been taking to rebuilding them is that because aftermarket products seem to be not of quality?
I say this because I discovered two bent intake vales on my head one of which had problems going in and out of the valve guide that it would stick with use a tac hammer to remove. So interference engine was damaged on the non interference side(I had installed new intake valves!). Did not use a special lube grease for them the first time. I am jotting it up to that. At this point I will be taking my vanos to machine shop and we can go over the inspection of the device. The Device does pass by my standards in regards to the inspection of the item. Which is the dot lining up to the mass of metal that points up.
Naked eye. The intake valves I will be replacing all of them. Though the other six intake valves are as smooth as glass and the guides are not split on the intake side. I new round of intakes is what I am going to use. But the vanos I am at a standstill on becuase of the price, the inspection I did the multiple times;that I attempted to install a timing chain. And the idea that it does not come up much on a replacement list of things.
My head is going to be as perfect as I can get it this time. My thoery is that those two intake valves from the first time I ran the .70 sized gasket touched the pistons because the vanos staggered the valve timing on the intake valves and two of them in the cylinder touched the pistons. Because the car ran smooth with the .70 gasket(maybe even a littler more responsive considering its a 10.5 to 1 ratio piston and I put a thinner than head gasket which gives me closer to 11 to 1 compression. Discovering that the exhaust valves do have 20thousandth forgiveness in them it just that the intake valves do not becuase of the vanos staggered timing during certain thottle position. Hence creating the domino effect and causing more friction on the timing system which led to the exhaust camshaft during the first attempt to break free because I only torque angled it at 90 degrees not 130 like have done sense. The other attempts which have been three that have accompanied the first. where done by inspecting everything until this time checking the intake valves.
I have a brand new timing set. and a 3 time attempt brand new timing set right now. The other time the last time I cobbled parts from the original timing set and some new to those attempts.
I have a brand new timing set(two guides three fastener bolts to the block for the guides,one exhaust cam gear,one crank timing gear, one upper guide new tensioner(should it be primed?),and timing chain for the n14 specific. with addition of oil pump crank gear, oil pump chain, Crank hub which I will ask later if it needs prepped before install.
I have the timing kit to include the intake,exhaust cam locks with center lock,flywheel pin which fits perfect no play, and dummy tensioner(Should I nurl the tip of the inner bolt to keep it from driving into the tensioner plastic guide?)
 

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where to start un picking,
VANOS is nothing to do with how far the valves travel between open and closed
VVT is on the inlet valves the ecu on car tells a step motor that is located on the rear of cylinder head this motor must be set with a allen key so remove slack after all back together switch ignition on you should hear the motor finding it stops, then switch off and then set with Allen key to remove slack while not allowing it to wind off its stops as such.
the correct torque and stretch for camshafts bolts are as follows, first 20NM to hold them then after you have turned engine by hand for 4 turns and relocked the timing tools back in pace and every thing just falls in to place, you can then do the rest of the tighten process, which is 180 degrees or stretch for both,, i mark the torx bolt with tipex and watch for it to move half a turn,, the crankshaft bolt must be 40NM plus 120 degrees stretch and must be tightened first before camshafts as it has most load more of a chance of throwing the timing out each time,,, once this bolts is tight and before tighten the camshafts for piece of mind recheck the timing by remove locks and turn engine and relock the engine,,
BARE IN MIND THE PRELOAD TOOL FOR THE CHAIN TENSIONER FACTORY SAY 0,6NM THAT IS JUST OVER HALF A NM,, NO TORQUE WRENCH THATS CHEAP WILL DO THIS,, SO TURN IT BY HAND WATCHING THE CHAIN TO MIMIC THE FORCE THE TENSIONER SPRING WOULD HAVE ON THE CHAIN,, WARNING FAILURE TO GET THIS PART RIGHT WILL THROW TIMING OUT, NEVER USE A SOCKET ON IT JUST FINGERS,,,
als before ever trying to start it turn engine with plug out by hand so can feel it anything is going to lock and go stiff if goes stiff then timing is out,
oil pump chain MUST DO BEFORE INSTALLING TIMING CHAIN, drop the sump only way might need to drop the front of exhaust , i dont i made a tools for undoing the 8mm bolts under that are blocked by it,
also when locking the crankshaft you will need 2 metal rods same length that will fit in number 1 and number 2 plug holes then turn crank until both at same height and the locking hole will either be right there or you might be 180 degrees out,, THE CRANKSHAFT WHEN LOCKED CORRECTLY WILL NOT TURN EITHER WAY EVEN WITH A LONG BAR ON END OF CRANKSHAFT,, and the camshaft when locked have writing on them in the middle thinner will clean them enough to see it this writing must be facing upwards when drop the cam locks on,
NEVER JUST USE THE CAMSHAFT LOCKING TOOLS TO HOLD THE CAMSHAFTS WHEN DOING UP THE TORX BOLTS IT WILL BEND THEM AND THEN THE CAM CAN MOVE TIMING WILL ALWAYS BE OUT THEN, YOU MUST HOLD CAMS WITH 27MM SPANNER NO OTHER WAY CORRECTLY, SOME PEOPLE DO USE MOLGRIPS BUT NOT A GOOD WAY OF DOING IT
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The Vanos clutch mechanism sits on the end of the intake camshaft. And I did not say that it opens and closes the valves. It staggers the timing of those valve more aggressively. It's a N14 it has no vanos actuator mechanism It has a vanos sensor and clutch at the end of the intake camshaft.
Ok the torque procedure. I have highlighted and taken some of that in consideration. Point is getting past the SUPER EXTREME COST OF MY cylinder head. Just rotating the engine after my attempts I have made to make this timing thing work(keep in mind it probably was just a thin head gasket that slightly trashed two of my intake valves;stuff I did not see with the naked eye). So those two trashed valves one of which was sticking in the valve guide; now it's action after being installed in the cylinder with the spring and retainer would not have been normal on that valve the other one from the same cylinder was bent and scratchy; but no with the naked eye you could not identify any of it from the other 8 unless you do a tear down and remove the valves. which I did.
Now the four turn. of the four stoke engine procedure. Is correct I do not argue that. But when and how you feel a stiffening as you turn is on a very low level because the valves are soft the intake camshaft has vanos. Very hard to tell considering I have new rings full compression and a stiff plastic valve guide set that is brand new(which make a tatching sound each time I go around in a full revolution incidentally).
I will do that part like I always have. It's the loading part that is new to me that your talking about. I have the n14 engine not the n18. I do not remember where it said in the books that you should only do a minor torque spec along with full torque of the crank bolt with torque angle then spin it four times. I mean it makes sense you want things to snuggle in. but if it lost it on my brand new valves again in this procedure it would certainly not run.
Starting the car I have cobbled together a new timing set that I have used for a couple of these attempts. I will install then I will press the start button three times to prime the fuel and then commence to install the un touched brand new timing chain with all the new stuff. Because this procedure just like that four rotation of the motor almost demands people use there new head as flipping tool in order; I guess to make sure the crank and cam bolts are settled in and bolts are stretch torqued.
Good job I will look into this comment when I commence to do the install. but stuff like dummy tensoiner and it digging into the plastic guide like a drill bit. does not help I have to take a grinder to that and knock burr's and some of the threads on the tip of the thin bolt so it does not do that.
I do use a jegs low inch pound torque tool that starts at zero. mimicking the real tensioner is gonna be hard. One of my attempts I used a fingers only without the wrench and did not fair as well as the recommended inch pound torque spec.
yea putting a timing chain on twice because I do not want to risk overloading it during the start button fuel prim process. Which is basically how the timing chain is changed in most descriptions. assuming you are changing a timing chain and not the head gasket to go with it. (that the fuel is primed). But what you said is they stretch in the four rotation sequence. before the other two steps.......sorry one step of the process which would be torque angle time.
Still need more info on that dummy tensioner before I start trusting myself again. AND I..actually had it running good the first time. It was just under full load during driving that it let loose. THIN HEAD GASKET. it was .070 when it should of been .090.
the car had also ran at all rpm in the garage on jackstands for 4 days before that happened. So maybe I am just scared even though I did the right thing and did not make a big deal out of the dummy tensioner tightening process?
 

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the first stage of 20nm on cams and 40nm on crank is a must do part as is the unlock and rotate the engine and relock and if correct the cam locks will just drop back on on if dont then loosen one cam bolt reset where it fits back in,, also you can try the sprung tensioner in and retest if all locks stay in line its all good, the reason for this i have done thousands of the bloody things and most dont time up the first time you do this some do most dont,, i have helped so many on here all had one thing in common they never checked it before doing the final stretch on the bolts and all of them had cars that would not rev when back on road and EML and cps codes up. if at work i just slapped them back together with out taking the time to do this process i would be out of work as each time its a new set of bolts and big strip down just because i never checked and double checked it,, up to you what ever works for you just telling you how i do them,
the dummy tensioner is a must do part ie it must be in place when doing up bolts as the spring tenioner its possible the spring will give and something can get out of time maybe,, 3mm out on crank is 6mm out on cams 3 degrees of retarded timing is enough it will run but will feel laggy
 

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Discussion Starter #7
So you just torque: The crank bolt 40nm no more no less, Then the cam bolts both at 20nm for the n14 mini cooper engine. then rotate the engine the four 360 degree rotations. Then torque angle everything.
Or do you torque the crank bolt at 40nm and torque angle at 180 degrees before the cams get any torque value on them at all.
I know the cams get 180 degrees a piece I saw a mini mechanic do that. The crank bolt I am not sure on the book says 40nm but I wonder about that part.
Also was wondering if they re surface people heads at the mini cooper dealer. If that is usual practice. Because I am confused about my cylinder heaad thickness at this point also. And wanted to know the nominal fraction or equation of what head gasket to get even. And a lower compression piston as they state to equal the 10.5 to 1 compression pistons I have. Or if I can come close with a three piece gasket with custom sized steel piece in the middle of the three piece gasket.
I don't want to buy a new head.....but I have already had a bad argument about it and it looks like the mini cooper head can only be surfaced once in its life; before you have to purchase the thickness gasket on the market that will conventionally fit it. And mini cooper dealer and service may have used that chance up when the car was under warranty(I don't know do you?)I have had the car sense it was brand new!
I need a traditional measurement of a mini cooper's cylinder head thickness and a way to compare mine against that original measurement(with a micrometer or measuring device and measurement points so I know how much has been taken off and get a gasket with the right piston compression ratio...piston set.
because I really don't want to lose power I have lost a lot in the process of making this work and don't need a low compression engine or a engine that will just hit the valves with the pistons. I could easily just buy a new bare casting for the price of a bar of gold dang near. And it's not easy but better then people telling me it's a bolt that is loose when it was piston valve clearance the whole time.
And I know that they do have shims ready and available for that engine. But I need the proper one with gasket kit or the custom sized mini head gasket. And a way to measure my cylinder head. I have a beautiful cylinder head from the machine shop. And have to consider it is a paper weight without me seeing first hand how thick the head is and what the custom sized gasket is for it? Beautiful but in todays world not new with all the material on it because it was surfaced so many times.
I'm sorry I'm going on and on. The first part of my comment was the most important question I had for you about the crank bolt torque rotate then torque angle that lower crank bolt? Or torque, torque angle then rotate; while the camshafts are just torqued waiting to be torque angled after rotation.
 

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the crank bolt is 40NM plus 120 degrees ir mark the socket and rotate the nut after doing the 40 nm by 120 degrees,, there are 360 degrees is a total revaluation,,
yes nip cam up to 20nm, the crank to 40nm then remove lockes rotate engine by hand ie use the crank pulley bolt MUST BE CLOCKWISE NEVER ANTICLOCKWISE OR YOU WILL PUSH THE TENSION IN AND TIMING WILL BE WRONG
head gaskets so your old head gasket do you still have it, if so there will be a tab that sits outside of the two faces tha will have 1 to 4 holes drilled in it, these are called notches in the trade, 1 notch is factory standard 4 notches is as much as can skim them,, the machine shop will know what they removed off the head they also should be able to tell the thickness of the head when it was sat or the skim machine, after all you have said its more likely not got timing right, dont feel bad i have seen techs get it wrong the first time easy to do,
And it's not easy but better then people telling me it's a bolt that is loose when it was piston valve clearance the whole time,,, your words also your words were crank bolt and only 40NM and no final stretch done and i promise you that must be done up the way i say they need to, also the surfaces must be oil free, shame your not nearer me i would of pop over and set the timing for you takes me 30 minutes ish these days done so many, so a good hour of checking and setting ensure its timed right just be fore doing the stretch part on the bolts,
ALWAYS TIGHTEN CRANK BOLT FIRST AND STRETCH PART IE 120 DEGREES
THEN EXHAUST CAM THEN INLET CAM
honestly the process is the key the checking and double checking ie with preload tool in and with the spring tensioner in after both if timed correctly should drop on to camshafts no force with cranks locked, ALSO YOU MUST HOLD THE CAMSHAFTS WITH 27MM SPANNER IF YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS THE CAM LOCKS WILL BE BENT OPEN AND CAM THEN MOVE ALL OUT OF TIME,
 

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Discussion Starter #9
My camlock set got five stars on amazon for value. not exactly a 200 dollar cam lock set. but the only to get five stars. I has all the components. And that is what it looked like to me watching a tech tighten the crank bolt(did not know what torque he was using) Then torque angling it afterward at 120 degrees is what it looked like but he had to turn that wrench in four short strokes; 120 degrees.
It would be great if you were here though you have said everything about it. I feel like I am missing something, mainly because of what you just said: That it is whole process. I got the concept. I just got done about a hour ago installing my new intake valves in the head I got back from the machine shop early today it is about 2:30 where I am at right now. Any way. The head looks great back from the machine shop from when I wrecked my exhaust valves because of the timing. The steel guides took damage on the exhaust side. Had to have them replaced with another set of 8 steel valve guide. and new seats cut for them....again..
Now it is right where it had been before tomorrow I install the brand new exhaust valves. I will think about what you said about that timing issue. Thing is I don't see how the crank bolt is gonna hold the timing during the test with new valve guides and valves. I have each one lubed up with valve/engine/etc special lube not like cam lube or assembly, something the machine shop sold me on for the assembly. But I can feel the stiffness of the all new valve train,springs,lifters the works. And your of the opinion that the tensioner is only used during first stage torque, then move to the real tensioner pin/bolt for the testing four rotation phase? does that tensioner get primed before installation.
I don't quite know how you said that. but it would be one heck of a test if the engine kept the timing during the first stage of the torquing process with the tensioner pin/bolt in. that what I though you were saying. And just use the dummy tensioner for the pulling up the slack of the chain and the initial torque of each of the three gears.
Why can't someone torque the crank gear down to 40nm then torque angle it at 120 before ever messing with anything else. Like the book show with the screwdriver holding the chain up while the crank gear and guides are dangling inside the timing house.
so The way your saying it each of those gears don't get final tightening because they need to spin or rotate as one system under the torque value only gently working there way to the faces of the snout of the crank and the camshaft faces on the end. And after each of the 4 rotation procedures that come up snake eye's. the bolt for whatever of the three gears has to be loosened and camshaft and crankshaft locks back into place and reset for another attempt(with the 27mm wrench pushing forward toward the firewall or pulling towards one self as they are torquing the bolt back down to the torque value for another attempt. (some people say it is good to have two people do something like that). but I don't have any friends locally around me. My timing set still looks perfect but it does have about thirty thousandths play in between the camshaft and cam lock. I wanted to shim that with a feeler gauge while I torque on the gear bolts but wonder where to put it on the inside of the exhaust camshaft lock or on the outside of the exhaust cam lock closer to me as I work on the engine and just behind the turbo charger?
I wished they sold one piece hubs for that mini cooper like they do with the big bother of the mini cooper the bmw M3.
So yea I still have timing issues to iron out. What I think I might do this time is try to do one thing a day which would slow down installation to about four days. But i will check in here and let you know what I have done with the timing. I will start the first day by tightening down the crank bolt without the seal installed to 40nm Then torque angle to 120 degrees that will be the first day. then I will write another paragraph how I am prepping up the dummy/test tensioner
I won't work on any bolts other then the crank bolt that first day. everything else will just be mock up for the next task for the next day. Does it matter that I had been torquing the crank bolt in the crankshaft previously at 180 degrees after 40nm or 38.5 pounds? Is the inner threads of the crankshaft O.K. for a lesser torque angle degree?
sounds like I just need to play around with it for a while before torque angling anything down. rotating it and getting it used to the surfaces of the crank and camshafts?
There is no good old way the crank bolt sat on the hub because my hub is brand new. So I am only finding a spot where the whole hub literally becomes like the stretch bolt where each surface of the gears and inside face of the hub have used great amount of pressure and twisting force to hold as one piece. But like you said it takes about a hour or two for someone like me if I did it all at once. Because I am constantly turning the crank pulley wheel four revolutions each time and checking the timing. under different definitions the last being: Turning the crank pulley four times with all three bolts only torqued not torque angled with the real tensioner bolt in Un primed or primed? I don't think that part matters? so much.
It is for a good reason though thank you for saying you would come over it's for my mom who is small 5 foot and her car she is used to for the last 10 years..
 

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i will private message you my number i'm in the uk i've been sticking a engine in a truck tipper truck today and just stopped so will send it in the morning you can ring me tomorrow and i will explain on a phone call
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I believe what your saying to be the truth. because I never let you know the first time I timed the car it ran perfect. Until I throttled it while driving. At that point it lost the cam timing on the exhaust side. I know that I was running a .070 mm gasket. but I'll bet before I had the machine work done then that it was in a .070mm category barely but there. the standard gasket is .090 without machine work done. The machinist says I need the .120 And am confident in what he said about the valve clearance. It was surfaced twice. He did it the second time.
Point is what your saying runs parallel with what has happened to me. I lost a we bit of timing on the exhaust. It caused the car to stop. I towed it home reset the timing then crashed the valves after driving for some time and four days on jack stands running and putting new oil after the break in oil. I did the head gasket timing chain and rod bearings and rings that is the general scoop.
and you said that is what the test is all about. clearing out the problem with the exhaust cam gear and the rest of the gears slipping like that. To look past the idea of crashing valves against the pistons and focus on the actual problem in a generic timing procedure as per what the book says. which is mainly right they do not elaborate on the testing procedure. But the values they give do intersect with what you say.
 

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facts are you had it running once so must of got timing correct or fairly close, you never done up the crankshaft bolt enough ie the main issue ie when engine rev'd it rotated on crankshaft and done the valves, i would also check the vac pump on exhaust cam shaft has not failed on the bearing and is stopping the exhaust camshaft or creating to much drag, as for head gaskets when ever i do a one that i'm going to map i fit the 4 notch gasket ie max size as can are mover air and fuel very slightly to each cylinder and can add more power, that said its so small dont make much difference also more clearance when the engine gets some miles on it and chain stretches again more clearance, if were me would buy the gasket from engine builder then will know its correct size,
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Vacuum pump is brand new and past inspection for wobble before I installed it. fuel pump is new. all coolant related items new. piston rings rod bearings new. Harmonic balancer and hub were new. Oil chain and gear on the crank were old. Now I have a new timing set which includes everything except the vanos. I have also bought a oil pump gear for the crankshaft and chain. so everything on the engine is new new borg warner turbo with Jcw exhaust manifold. Everything in valvetrain is new except the for the cams.
All the stuff I puchased for this build are brand new. It's the timing sets and valves and machine work that I keep paying for each time. I started the building process in may 2019. I even pulled out of a old box my serpentine belt tensioner that I pulled off at thirty thousand miles because I replaced my alternator, battery from stock which was the up rated alternator 120 or 150amp It. but the old belt tensioner still had the cross hatch on the steel wheel.
So I'm just thinking that bolt is having a heck of time because of all the compression and friction from the crank rod bearings to the valvetrain to the accesories.
What I need to do is have the hub welded or something or some type of adhesive or epoxy. Not a lot just a dod of it on different area's where the gears are. but something like adhesive is like silly putty at 6000 rpm.
I need a one piece hub or something.
I will probably try this again your way. I don't think it could get any more authentic considering your from the UK and dealt with this type of car. for the heritage of the car reason. For the reason if it slips again it's not the end of the world. And because I see no other options on the market right now. Except for the crank bolt capture for the mini cooper r56.
SO I heard the part where you said don't torque angle the bolt for the crank until the test was done. I will try to be careful and turn the crank pully only during that part with the dummy pre tensioner in place then graduate to the real tensioner and finally if it passes the test of holding timing under that condition a hour or two hours of me rotating it by hand four revolutions each time then I will torque angle all three gears starting with crank bolt and ending with the exhaust cam bolt.
 

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SO I heard the part where you said don't torque angle the bolt for the crank until the test was done. I will try to be careful and turn the crank pully only during that part with the dummy pre tensioner in place then graduate to the real tensioner and finally if it passes the test of holding timing under that condition a hour or two hours of me rotating it by hand four revolutions each time then I will torque angle all three gears starting with crank bolt and ending with the exhaust cam bolt. ........ yep thats all you need to do ie never stretch bolt untll you know its timed right, also hold the camshaft with 27mm spanner or pair of molgrips while doing the stretch part to prevent any movement in camshaft is very important
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Do you use the spanner wrench pulling toward you and into the cam lock as you tighten or pushing toward the firewall as you tighten? does the cam sit at lets say 91 degrees which would be holding the spanner on the cam lock outside toward me. or 89 degrees pushing holding the spanner against the inside cam lock facing the firewall?
And I am aware I may possibly need someone else doing that as I tighten the cam bolts.
Also how do I reset the crank if that slips during the test? or is that such a no go that I would have to remove the timing chain and start the entire approach again. Also during the other attempts expect the last one I was using a 22 mm wrench to shift the cams into place for the cam locks and stopped doing that of course. The brass fitting on the end that locks into the vacuum pump started to un screw. NOW is just lightly turned it the other way. I think it tightens up counterclockwise anyway which would me it stays tight as the engine rotates counterclockwise, point is.........this is the last thing I inspected this time around I can put a finger on......is something like this gonna cause a problem it did not feel like unscrewing with the naked hand. but a lot is on the line should I buy a new stock o.e. cam with this fitting already on it. because mine is no good anymore?
 

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if timing fails the test reset by the cam locks ie chances are it will be the inlet cam, HOLD THE CAM SHAFT FROM THE GEARBOX SIDE OF CAM SHAFT THERE IS 27MM WITHIN THE CASTING OF THE CAMSHAFTS,
WARNING,,,,,,, DO NOT ALLOW THE CAMSHAFT LOCK TOOL TO HOLD THE CAMS WHEN DOING UP THE TORX BOLTS FOR CAM SPROCKETS,,,,,, IF YOU HAVE EVER DONE THIS AND CAM SHAFT MOVES WITHIN THE LOCK TOOL,,, BUY NEW LOCK TOOL AS YOURS A=HAS BEEN BENT,, IT DONT TAKE MUCH
 

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Discussion Starter #17
camshaft lock tools are not perfect in nature. they have from my own to others that I have seen have 30thousandths play in them. also I believe the camshaft lock tool are built at 90 degrees hold down. Where as the camshafts get something like 91 degrees. so the camshaft locks are a bit wide(30,000 thousandths wide). Now I can use a feeler gauge to take up the slack. And I know a 27mm wrench is built for that part of the camshaft but the cam locks literally lock over that part. There is a 22mm hex built into the provision for the high pressure fuel pump. but again they don't advise holding from that. Now what you saying is that if it breaks loose during the test to hold the inlet camshaft at 90 degrees with no camlock in place so I would be using some kind of degree tool or 90 degree level. of some sort.
Listen I don't know if it gets 90 degrees or 91 degrees people have said there is 3 to 4 degrees forgiveness built into those cam timings(which I am led to believe that would be for advance only and there is no forgiveness for setting them). Also the way you speaking of it....it sounds right because you implying also there is not really any forgiveness and the whole strategy is focused on rotating the engine until the gears hold solid to their shaft counterparts. For two reasons, but one that is more important; that would be when you go to stretch the bolts that you have found maximum torque hold down so the gears on whatever shaft you are turning are not likely to drift as you are torque angling(stretching) the bolts.
Now not allowing the cam lock to hold the camshaft. So would I be hoovering the camshaft with the wrench inside of the camlock as much as possible or would I be holding the camshaft with the wrench bracing the camshaft 3sided flat surfaced bolt in the casting of the camshaft on one side(bracing on one side) of the camlock.
Or would I simply take the camlock off. Now if it is the intake side it would be both camlocks if it's the exhaust it's just one camlock.
I say this because I saw a person on youtube use a wrench on the far end of the cam it looked like he was holding it from the vacuum provision heck on the titanium fitting that fits into the vacuum pump to power that. Now that's a 22mm wrench.
the video shows a level picture more than a over the top view so it may have been a freehanded 27mm without the camlock in place as his buddy is tightening the exhaust camshaft bolt, he was holding the cam into place, just did not know if he was bracing one side of the cam three side provision for a 27mm wrench bolt thing against the camlock.
And the other video I saw shows a guy use a feeler guage to take up the slack within the slightly generic camlock set; because it was slightly wide from the manufacturer of the camlocks tool set; as is mine camlock tool set.
If what you are saying is wrong on both ends then I will shell out the money for a new camlock set if that is what it takes. swabwen is not the brand I am gonna buy though because it looks like my fifty dollar version and that version both have a 30 thousandth play within the camlock.
That guy took the slack up inside the camlock and camshaft with a 30 thousandth feeler gauge he used on the turbo side of the head on the lower half of that three sided and on side curved provision to put the 27mm wrench. at that point the exhaust camshaft was immobile.
but that deal was the n18 engine with the vanos.
Your saying the inlet cam might be the one to move therefore I should............do what now? remove the camlock?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I guess that finally answers my question. I will go then and try it this way. And the tensioner does it get primed full or primed and bled like lifters; with oil before putting it in with a 27mm socket; or not any oil at all.
does the test tensioner get anything else aside of 5 inch pounds of torque?
And what about the chain each time I re torque from breaking loose let say a intel gear? i would simply push the slack of the chain from that action back into the tensioner side? So I would be re torque with the recommended 22nm of torque to the inlet with the real tensioner in the engine if the test failed at that point?
 

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the tensioner is not oil pressure fed it relies on the spring the oil hole is lubrication mainly.
if your putting 5inch pounds of torque on the tensioner preload tool its not correct, its in the book at 0.6nm newton meters or torque,, but what i do i to mimic the amount of spring pressure on the spring tensioner, ie set all the chain on loose sprockets the with chain loose start turning the pretension tool shaft with finger and thumb only, watch the chain go tight from this pint give it maybe another 3/4 of a turn this should give enough load ie preload to the chain,, after this point do the camshaft bolt to 40nm and the camshaft bolts to 20nm,,, once done remove the pretenion tool and insert the spring tenioner rotate the engine a few times then relock the engine with timing tool, if the engine goes back to timing up all line up then move on to the stretch bolts side of it,,
i always do the crankshaft one first leave the locking pin in crankshaft can use that pin to level on when doing up the bottom bolt,, ie its already got 40nm add 120 degrees to that, once done this then back up to camshafts,, they already have 20nm on them both cam locks should be bolted down so cams cant move.. if any movement in cams then locks are bent either use feeler gauge to stop this or buy new ones, YOU MUST HOLD THE CAMSHAFTS WITH A THIN 27MM SPANNER WHILE DOING THE STRETCH BOLTS,,, what i do is do the camshafts in 2 stages ie they already are set to 20nm then add 90 degrees then a further 90 degrees on each one,, the book say 180 degrees but i have in past had the odd bolt snap so since then i do it like above and have never had one go south since,,
IMPORTANT THE BOLT THREADS MUST BE OILED BEFORE FITTING, THE SURFACES ON ALL SPROCKETS IE CAM TO SPROCKETS MUST BE DRY AND OIL FREE, USE PANEL WIPE OR SWITCH CLEANER THINNERS
SAME WITH THE CRANKSHAFT BOLT ANS BOTTOM SPROCKET,, ITS A FRICTION FIT
 
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