[JTownPBX]

I have also installed the harmonic balancer at this time. when I got done I thought about what people were saying here. about only torque the bolts do not torque angle until rotating the engine and reference checking with the camlocks and flywheel pin in place.
I thought about how I may have to re do what I just did by installing new camshaft bolts; which I have. I thought about the geometry and process of rotating the timing chain and how if the intake camshaft gear might need to be adjusted. because if it were the exhaust gear rotating the engine would be useless because it would take the tense-ness out of the chain between the crankshaft gear and the exhaust camshaft gear on the static plastic guide side.
but if it were the intake camshaft gear it could be adjusted leaving the tension from the rotation procedure still active between the crankgear and exhaust camshaft gear; due to the real or dummy tensioner holding tension on the entire chain to begin with.
It takes alot for me to understand or maybe I am just thinking about other ways of doing things.
I did do it by the book though and feel like it will probably work for just a 30 second fuel priming session. before I put the brand new timing chain set on it with N14 specific timing chain as it was labeled from where I bought it.
It might make a difference in the end the other new timing set I am using on this and is in the engine now is only been used during my prior attempts. That chain does measure the same size as my original chain anyway.
Let me know what anybody thinks.

 

[mike1967]

just stop thinking of other ways of doing it so many wrong ways to do it ,one way to do them right and more to the point to know you have done it right, is by far the point, i have wrote on this post a number of times how to do them and get them right the first time,, sometimes its just no point trying to reinvent the wheel

 

[JTownPBX]

agreed. mike1967 agreed......from what I have painstakingly wrote here about how I have gone through everything with a fine tooth comb. To get to this point. Even if you did not offer anything Mike1967 I would still give you a hand for supporting what I am saying here as something that is a legitimate situation.
Now I followed through and started the car up. I hickup chi'ed through the first 15 to 25 seconds after pressing the start button 3 times. It took four times because I pre maturely de pressed the start button to stop the start process. So 25 seconds or so maybe sooner the pistons all came online. I waited about ten more seconds of the pistons all firing nice and even. Then I shut it down. Depressed the start button and turned the car off.
Now I was a bit hesitant to listen to you before because ALL I WANTED TO DO THIS TIME. Seeing how it is between 500-700 hundred dollars later from the last time I had the valve timing failure(to have the head re done with valve guides valves piston rings timing chain parts.
I just wanted to start the car for 40 seconds to prime the fuel. I made a painstaking point of cleaning all the timing parts with brake cleaner. including the back side of the oil pump gear that sits on the crankshaft.
So I did it the car is back to life right now. Just 40 seconds of life. But alive. NOW that the fuel is primed in the system. Now that I will not have to drain the coolant or get into the crankcase to check the pistons or anything or unplug the fuel system, for which I did buy and install another fuel pressure line for part of the recover from failure cost.
Now I am ready to listen to this way you are talking about. You have left quite a bit of knowledge here in this post to which I will be referring to here in the near future. I'm gonna install the timing chain this next time around. No more dry runs. No more temporary timing chain to get fuel primed situation.
The fuel is primed and the brand new timing chain is gonna be installed. I just don't know when at this point. and need just a little more knowledge. Obviously I found out after I got the car running earlier this week for 40 seconds before shutting it off. You guessed it LOCTITE640. And the loctite . which I have seen exact applications for it in this situation.
Now I am a adult. So I know I am probably not gonna use it. But I guess I want to stare at the bottles of it before I do my final install. I know the book is generally right. I know your right for the most part. I know I heard a difference in the car this last time. It may have been because the valves were installed correct. the head gasket was the right one. and I cleaned all the timing components whether it be factory grease on the bolts; to behind the oil pump gear on the crankshaft snout. Because I cleaned it up this time.
So I may over do it if I use 640 on the hub shaft.
Either way I am at peace right now knowing the car is out there and can start up if I want it too. but installing the brand new timing chain at this point is correct.
I will post before I begin the final timing chain re solve on this post here. believe me I can't wait to get this car running again. I can't wait to post under a different section on mini2 about something non sensicle like radio l.e.d.s or a new cup holder I bought. thankyou everyone so far!

 

[mike1967]

I know your right for the most part. hmmm yep that was funny, in the past 3 weeks i've done 4 timing chain replacements on same engines all done within 5 hours all were checked with diagnostics and all were within 1 degree if not zero degrees, guess i must try harder lol to see if i can get it from "for the most part" to 101% maybe, nothing you have wrote makes sense, ie you have primed the fuel system before fitting the timing chain, no need to prime the fuel system except for when its all back together and ready to start,, ie turn key listen to fuel pump in tank when it stops do this another 4 or 5 times fuel primed within a few cranks it will fire, you cannot prime the fuel system without a timing chain on if ts a turbo engine as high pressure pump runs off the inlet camshaft powered by the chain system. WOULD NEVER CRANK THE ENGINE OVER WITH TIMING CHAIN NOT TOTALLY FITTED AND STRETCH BOLTS DONE ETC AND TIMING SET AND CHECKED ,

 

[JTownPBX]

That was what I was saying is that this last time. Everything lined up for what I am calling the "Temporary timing chain". Which is a brand new timing chain bought summer of 2019. I had used it the previous attempts. timing set which included: Crank timing gear,three timing guides(Upper,tensioner, and static). New tensioner bolt, and new exhaust camshaft gear.chain, the bolts I have been replacing as I made each attempt.
This last attempt I made sure to clean everything though. And I did rotate the engine a few times after timing it. but it just keep coming up right. perhaps the intake vanos was not oil up yet or something(I clean that up with brake cleaner and a pipe cleaner through the bolt hole). It just came up right each time I don't know if it was the new camlock set or what.
So I marked a mark on the harmonic balancer with marker pulled the flywheel pin. put it back to together and started it up. It was probably what I would call the most intense installing of a timing chain I have done.
When the fuel was primed I just shut it down. Because I have another untouched timing set that I have purchased along the way. And wanted to install that as a independent installation(not installing it with putting a new head gasket on or anything other thing like filling the coolant.
which is why I said this time I am going to be reading what you said. but I really don't know what to look for. I do know through the other attempts the exhaust camshaft is slightly scrapped up on the end where the exhaust camshaft gear slipped on the back side of the exhaust camshaft gear. don't know what to make of it. thinking about using loctite 242 on that bolt for the final timing chain. I am going to be installing.
I'm just scared. what you just said gives me confidence about the installation. where you said you did 5 timing chains just recently. I on the other hand have put my engine back together and actually have a feeling that it is probably good to go as it sits. seeing how I did the check like you stated.
rotating the engine over. I just did not see where the engine intake camshaft slips. It came up 89.5 on the rotation. Should I keep doing it again until 90. If so I will make that the goal for the final install.
After starting the car it purred like a kitten once the fuel got to all four cylinders. Should I buy a new exhaust camshaft before I begin. The scratching came from the three area's on the back of a standard exhaust camshaft gear just to the very end less then 1/16 of the exhaust camshaft. but it did not look like it lathed the metal of the end of the exhaust camshaft. It just looked like one of the attempts I did it moved. Which is what caused the failure that time.
Car runs fine right now. I know I could probably start it up again. And it could advance timing through the computer and it would not wreck the valves. I just would really like to try again with the untouched timing set. Just to re affirm what I have been doing. Yea know I did it this time installing the timing chain. No point in hoping or wishing I did it right when I feel confident I did do it right. Might as well install it again. Because luck and hope is not what gonna get that car timed. Knowing what I am doing will. And with what you were saying is pretty much what I am doing.
what I gathered from what you said is basically when i re do it to make sure it reaches 90 degrees on both camshafts before I proceed to the next step?

 

[mike1967]

no not 90 degrees,, its in total 180 degrees of stretch on cam bolts,,, ie its wrote in autodata as this 20NM +180 degrees, i found its better to split the 180 degrees in to two ie 20NM plus 90 plus 90 it just gives the bolts a rest between limits chance of snapping them,, the treads of the bolts must be lightly oiled and the surfaces the sprockets contact must be clean and dry ,, 20NM plus 90 degrees is not enough force on the bolts,, think i have said this a few times and think you might not be getting it,,

 

[JTownPBX]

I meant the inside flats of the camshaft(where you put the camlocks on); being at 90 degrees from the flat casting surface of the head where one would bolt the third piece of the camlock set to; the part that supports the two camlocks in place.
the oil I already asked about. sense no one wants to say what kind of oil. I will say that it must be 242 LOCTITE because locktite has oil based properties too it. Splitting up the torque values is not consequential other wise the book would have stated it be. And that bolt the crank bolt. I do have not ever oiled and don't think I will because I don't want it to back out or have a problem coming out seeing how I am gonna be using 242 LOCTITE on bolts.
I'm just scared everybody and want to get my car back on the road. I car I paid a S ton of money for. Nothing I rendered 1 dollar on a free advertising website. It is a N14 engine with the automatic 6 speed(it not the 2 dollar manual version).

 

[mike1967]

the reason why all stretch bolts MUST BE OILED is due to the force thats designed in to the stretch part of design ie if a thread dont more freely it will not give correct force between to two surfaces ie the important bit, i've use 5/30w engine oil for past ten years never had one slip,, the trouble with thread lock is this, remember is 60.000 miles its due another chain kit and thread lock will hurt the threads in camshafts and crank the next time around unless a thread clean tool is used,, but still no point thread locking it never have i done that on the prince engines , i have seen the aftermath of one guy that did use thread lock, ie a 12ft breaker bar on the bolt that snapped off in the crankshaft,, ended up engine out crank out fit a new one.
another trick i do when rebuilding them is t use engine oil mixed with wyns oil additive ie its very thick and helps protect the cam journals on first start up

 

[JTownPBX]

I thought the book said put the crank bolt in dry without oil. I used 10w40 high mileage, but just used it on the camshaft bolts. I did rotate it around without torque angling them(stretching them and rotated it until the labels came up and got the same value; the cam locks dropped right on there flat to the surface of the head locking the camshafts in place. I rotated it again until the camshaft labels came up again; The brand new camlocks dropped right into place flush with the surface of the head.
That was why I said that it must be something else I am missing that you are saying, because you said it would not come up the same with the camlocks fitting. And my hypothesis was that it must be due to not having oil in the vanos clutch on the end of the intake, or whatever they call it. That without oil in the vanos via the vanos sensor it is somehow giving me a false reading saying everything is lined up when it's not.
Problem is I may have messed with the project of changing the timing chain to many times for it to ever hold the timing during a situation like going up a hill on the highway and the gear on the auto transmission downshifting.
Thank you for telling me about the oil and what you use, I relize your time is money with your occupation. Hopefully buy me not really using oil on all the other times I tried to hook up the timing chain except the last time; it will give me the much needed edge to hold the timing and with the cold. I see what you mean about the threadlock(future proof) it won't matter if I put it on the camshaft if I have to re do it anyway because it won't hold timing. I think it will hold timing in the camshaft with proper torque. It's the crank bolt. I need to find someone that can machine out a template for me to drill the crank for dowell pins if I can in the next week. Because that is when the loctite that I ordered is gonna arrive. I probably won't be using it on the camshaft or crank bolts O.K. I read the yellow mini book and it steers clear of that on anything really, because the engine is aluminum. I am more in reference to installing it on the shaft of the crank hub using 640 loctite where the timing gear goes only. because I have a extra hub the original and plenty of new crank timing/ crank oil gears. And I have refined my crank bolt install to 10 minutes max lining up the chains and the teeth and installing the crank holder tool. And it is cold where I am at that it would favor 10-15 minutes before it really starts gelling up with loctite 640.

 

[mike1967]

?

 

[JTownPBX]

Well Still waiting for that custom part that is in the works for me. I just used pictures for the machinist to follow; of the bmw M3 with the pure turbo setup with the custom crankshaft gear assembly that has provisions for Crankshaft pins along with the proper template,die, donut looking thing with two pre drilled holes for me to lay over the crankshaft so I can drill the crank straight.
I don't know if anybody heard but I did get it running for 30 seconds or so as I was saying to prime the fuel rail and it was a rough start too. Priming the fuel it was uneven on the engine firing sequence(lack of fuel). Once fuel was prime and cylinders were even in running and some of the white type assembly and wd 40 smoke was out of the tailpipe I shut it down.
Feels good to have it running though I have not started it sense. The brand new timing chain is gonna be going on soon and if everything ends up the way it should I will have my own custom pin locked oil pump,timing chain gears on a custom pinned hub. I might have the custom part cryo cooled at this point I have time. And at the very least I could go back out and start the car if I had too right now and it would run just fine.

 

[JTownPBX]

I was gonna say if that custom part is not of my spec I will not use it. I think I will take Mike1967 suggestion. I checked my timing after starting the car to prime the gas. I had made a marker mark on the harmonic balancer lined up with the crack between the engine and the oil pan. When I was through starting it I put the fly wheel pin back in it. checked the mark It looked like it drifted slightly up. don't really know It could be a matter of perception.
I did although drop the cam locks on the cam shafts. The Exhaust camshaft lock dropped right on the exhaust camshaft; without having to use the 27mm wrench. But the intake camshaft when I dropped the lock on the camshaft dropped on it; but there was a hairline of a gap between the part of the intake camlock that overlaps the exhaust camlock.
Anyone that has been reading this story would know that Mike1967 was animate about there being issue with the intake camshaft in the timing procedure. So when I timed that intake camshaft I had someone hold the 27mm wrench on the intake while I tighten the vanos clutch bolt.
And after I ran the engine for about 30 seconds I check it again and it is off a hairline. So I am thinking about propping a piece of wood under the intake vanos gear while someone holds the 27mm wrench and I tighten it 180 degree's.

 

[JTownPBX]

What I did in the end was time it having someone else hold the spanner wrench on the intake camshaft. during the actual torque phase. Then I alternated between the two camshafts and tightened down the bolts according to the torque specs and then degreed the bolts 180 for the intake bolt. Then 135 degrees for the exhaust. Very lightly coating the bolts with oil then taking a paper towel and patting the threads before installing them for the camshaft gears.
I rotated the timing chain around twice and checked to make sure the cam locks fit perfect which they did and fly wheel pin fit also.
After getting it running it started to have problems backfiring which I talked about in a different discussion. Aside of that I was exstatic to have it running finally and re timed the car over the next three months buying new bolts and parts along the way. Also trying to deal with the backfiring issue. I found out it was teflon seals that I forgot to install in on the tips of the fuel injectors. Two of them to be exact. After which the car has run fine and has roughly 1200 miles on it now. Even in the cold the rebuilt engine I have built does not tick or tap. And maintaining it's original characteristic's it had before only enhanced from new parts for the engine; and a new turbo. With new tolerances also. If I could pick any one new thing I bought for it aside of what is usual for a rebuild it would be the Oil pump chain, because their is no adjustment for that and a new chain does appear to hug the sprockets tighter. In the end I replaced dang near everything; except the alternator and AC,engine block and Cylinder head,or fuel injectors and fuel rail or HPFP.
Next time when I get a chance I am gonna replace the Camshafts sense I have a good understanding of timing the thing.