[DS29]

Hi

I'm starting to think about doing the timing chain on my 2011 Cooper D (BMW engine). The car has done 82k miles, so it's getting close to that time.

Thing is, the car is worth about £3k and I've been quoted £1700 to do the timing chain (admittedly including the clutch).

It just feels like a lot of money to spend on the car relative to it's value.

So, the kind of questions I have are:

- have others taken the plunge and done the chain on the MCD?
- what is the latest age/mileage you'd consider doing the chain?
- will the car be ok for mega mileage if I did decide to do the chain?

Thoughts?

Dave

 

[DS29]

can't believe nobody has done the timing chain on their MCD yet?

 

[mike1967]

can't believe nobody has done the timing chain on their MCD yet?

i've done plenty over the years bmw should be ashamed of this but they are not, seen many under 80k with chain slipped and worse seen some over 100k think how car has been driven ,makes a big difference, i bought bmw diesels for years from 1996 325tds 6 cylinder engine was a peach bullet proof one of mine done well over 260.000 miles with a map on it as well. i kept buying them to around 2009 ish when i bought a new 3 series 2007 and within 60k it had done its chain and went bang and ho my good that was expensive back then bmw denied any weakness etc not covered just out of warranty,, after that i stopped buying them, even to this day its one of those jobs you run from. bbc watchdog program slammed them for it bmw just blamed the owners etc, and still on most of their models chain still mage of chocolate,, its a shame the m47 diesels were fairly good chain at front swirl flaps on inlet manifold would snap off and total the motor if not blanked off around 70k. most garages will look at that job as a mechanic and a ramp taken up for at least 2 days plus you must have the locking kit fo cam and crank etc, and i would say deffo do the flywheel and clutch at same time, or if car running well at moment if were me i would change it for less miles car add the £1700 to your car as px or sell it private all cleaned up nice,

 

[Dave1960]

I've just joined the forum and have a 2011 COUNTRYMAN (R60) 1.6 Cooper D ALL4 Diesel (100,000 miles) & the timing chain looks like it's jumped some teeth. I used to work on my own cars many years ago, & I am hoping to repair this myself but it's taking a long time researching how to do this job as cars have moved on a bit! I've started stripping it & have to admit I am struggling but so far I've removed the following & found:
1. All the inlet rocker arms either distorted or broken - Exhaust rockers look untouched
2. Half of the inlet rocker, closest to the timing chain is missing, so I assume it's gone down inside the timing chain cover
3. Inlet camshaft bent - Exhaust looks perfectly straight but I can borrow a dti to check it
4. Camshaft carrier broken in LH corner & one of the camshaft bearing caps broken
5. I was able to push the chain tensioner back with my finger, & slip the timing chain off ,which I assume I shouldn't be able to do.
6. Leak-down test failed & whilst under pressure I spayed WD40 down the inlet ports onto the inlet valves which bubbled up so i assume all inlet valves are bent.

I'm trying to remove the head next, but I'm struggling to remove the turbo as the upper heat shield must have screws at the back & I can't get at them as it's so close to the bulkhead. I started to remove the EGR module & valve but again the bolts underneath look very difficult to get at. I gave up on the EGR module tonight as I need a std length 6mm allen key as mine is too short one way around & too long the other way around.

I realise this is a major job, & the list of parts is going to be very long & expensive, but I can't afford to pay to have this done. I've read a post where it said the DPF will probabaly need changing at this mileage & it's probably best to replace the clutch & flywheel whilst the gearbox is out.

I would appreciate any advice on the above, & if I should I consider removing the engine as everything seems so difficult to get at? Also should I use second hand camshafts, carrier, rockers etc. & are they the same on the 2.0D as the 1.6D? If not which supplier should I use for all the parts as BMW parts are out of the question.

Sorry for the long post but I'm finding it a bit daunting at the moment & could do with help from someone with experience of this work.

Dave

 

[mike1967]

I've just joined the forum and have a 2011 COUNTRYMAN (R60) 1.6 Cooper D ALL4 Diesel (100,000 miles) & the timing chain looks like it's jumped some teeth. I used to work on my own cars many years ago, & I am hoping to repair this myself but it's taking a long time researching how to do this job as cars have moved on a bit! I've started stripping it & have to admit I am struggling but so far I've removed the following & found:
1. All the inlet rocker arms either distorted or broken - Exhaust rockers look untouched
2. Half of the inlet rocker, closest to the timing chain is missing, so I assume it's gone down inside the timing chain cover
3. Inlet camshaft bent - Exhaust looks perfectly straight but I can borrow a dti to check it
4. Camshaft carrier broken in LH corner & one of the camshaft bearing caps broken
5. I was able to push the chain tensioner back with my finger, & slip the timing chain off ,which I assume I shouldn't be able to do.
6. Leak-down test failed & whilst under pressure I spayed WD40 down the inlet ports onto the inlet valves which bubbled up so i assume all inlet valves are bent.

I'm trying to remove the head next, but I'm struggling to remove the turbo as the upper heat shield must have screws at the back & I can't get at them as it's so close to the bulkhead. I started to remove the EGR module & valve but again the bolts underneath look very difficult to get at. I gave up on the EGR module tonight as I need a std length 6mm allen key as mine is too short one way around & too long the other way around.

I realise this is a major job, & the list of parts is going to be very long & expensive, but I can't afford to pay to have this done. I've read a post where it said the DPF will probabaly need changing at this mileage & it's probably best to replace the clutch & flywheel whilst the gearbox is out.

I would appreciate any advice on the above, & if I should I consider removing the engine as everything seems so difficult to get at? Also should I use second hand camshafts, carrier, rockers etc. & are they the same on the 2.0D as the 1.6D? If not which supplier should I use for all the parts as BMW parts are out of the question.

Sorry for the long post but I'm finding it a bit daunting at the moment & could do with help from someone with experience of this work.

Dave

i remember the pain the very first time i got involved in one of those n47 diesels,, best bit of advice is this,, remove front off car totally off it ie radiator and aircon and front impact beam etc will take you a hour i would say the first time, then pull the engine and gearbox out together as one unit can just walk it out the front of the car, then split the gearbox off engine,, when head is off you will then see the damage and if your lucky it will just be repairable head damage,, that said not seen many that have been, really do tend to do a lot of damage and chances are its going to be a secondhand engine change over,, if this outcome does happen only a fool would install a engine with north of 40k on it without replacing the timing chain on it,, yours has done more towards the max mileage before letting go,
1, jack car up on front remove wheels and front end
2 remove both drive shafts ie split bottom ball joints, track rod end, tie bar links,
3 pull wiring off the ecu and fuse box under bonnet ie wiring comes out complete, refit same way
4 undo exhaust at lowest accessible point
5 use engine crane hold engine undo engine mounts remove them makes it easier to pull it all out,
you cannot fix a timing chain failure on those engines without removing it all when chain has let go,, the just removing the gearbox way is only for cars that have a rattle and are still running,,, you will need special lock tools for replacing any chain

 

[gstsaver]

i remember the pain the very first time i got involved in one of those n47 diesels,, best bit of advice is this,, remove front off car totally off it ie radiator and aircon and front impact beam etc will take you a hour i would say the first time, then pull the engine and gearbox out together as one unit can just walk it out the front of the car, then split the gearbox off engine,, when head is off you will then see the damage and if your lucky it will just be repairable head damage,, that said not seen many that have been, really do tend to do a lot of damage and chances are its going to be a secondhand engine change over,, if this outcome does happen only a fool would install a engine with north of 40k on it without replacing the timing chain on it,, yours has done more towards the max mileage before letting go,
1, jack car up on front remove wheels and front end
2 remove both drive shafts ie split bottom ball joints, track rod end, tie bar links,
3 pull wiring off the ecu and fuse box under bonnet ie wiring comes out complete, refit same way
4 undo exhaust at lowest accessible point
5 use engine crane hold engine undo engine mounts remove them makes it easier to pull it all out,
you cannot fix a timing chain failure on those engines without removing it all when chain has let go,, the just removing the gearbox way is only for cars that have a rattle and are still running,,, you will need special lock tools for replacing any chain

Is there a detailed HOW TO for removing these engines and doing the time chain issues ? It is such a common problem from what I read. I am newbie - bought a 2013 countryman 1.6 Diesel knowing the timing chain broke. I have it so that I can see the cams and it doesn't look like the cam housing is cracked (I heard this often happens). Interested in more comments on if this can be done in the car or always best to take it out of the car.

 

[mike1967]

pull front right off car until can walk engine out on engine crane by far the safest way or put car on 2 post ramp and drop it out on its subframe and front wheels,,
have done both ways and if working on the floor pulling front off will need to regas the aircon when job done,, little tip always put all front panels in side the car saves getting damaged,, also if timing chain has slipped and car wont run it will have damage inside there is a 2 teeth of tolerance when both inlet and exhaust valves are at tdc and engine is very compression,, reason i say this if your thinking of just sticking a chain kit on it and putting back in chances are you will be pulling it back out again,,, what i do always do is a leak down test on the cylinders ,, ie remove the glow plugs and charge the bore with air,,, i have modified a car tyre 12v pump i can hook to car battery set the cylinder with all valves closed and add air if it holds air and pressure jumps up over 40psi chance are it will be ok ,, best way is with proper airline but if dont have access to one this works enough to get a idea

 

[gstsaver]

Thanks !

 

[Cosmic73]

I would write it off. Thing about these engines is that there's always even more money to spend once it's rebuilt because there's always something else to go wrong.
Also, that much damage to the head you don't know what else is damaged but you can't see.

 

[gstsaver]

Any videos of doing that leak down test ?

 

[mike1967]

 

[gstsaver]

Ok thanks - so in the case of a diesel you go in through the glow plugs ? Thanks !

 

[mike1967]

some kits replace the injector i got a kit that will do both
i got below kits not bad for money,, the garage spec ones are over £500

US PRO 16pc Diesel Engine Cylinder Pressure Compression Tester Set 5387 711583991233 | eBay

Pressure gauge up to 70 bar. Bookmark Us. Glow Plug Adaptors sizes M24 x 2: 63mm. M24 x 1.5: 88mm. M22 x 1.5: 73mm.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[mike1967]

added note when working on diesels the above kit is a must have tool to check the mechanical on any diesel before throwing cash at it

 

[Dave1960]

I don’t have a hoist but I managed to get the head off mine by removing the upper & lower o/s engine engine mounts, & using a ratchet strap to pull the engine forward to gain access to various bolts. I really wouldn’t recommend this as it’s a real struggle on axle stands, & I wish I’d got the hoist & pulled the engine like Mike suggested. Fortunately the pistons are only marked & not holed, & although the valves don’t look bent but they must be slightly as it failed the leak down test badly. I’m now looking to buy a hoist to pull the motor & I just hope the crank / end bearings aren’t damaged. Here’s a couple of links to web sites that really helped me & a couple of pics of my pistons / head.
MINI R60 Cooper D ALL4 SAV - Repair Manuals and Technical Data
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/partgrp?id=ZD52-EUR-02-2011-R60-Mini-Cooper_D_ALL4_16&mg=11

 

[gstsaver]

Thanks Dave ! How did you do your leak down test on the cylinder heads?

 

[gstsaver]

I don’t have a hoist but I managed to get the head off mine by removing the upper & lower o/s engine engine mounts, & using a ratchet strap to pull the engine forward to gain access to various bolts. I really wouldn’t recommend this as it’s a real struggle on axle stands, & I wish I’d got the hoist & pulled the engine like Mike suggested. Fortunately the pistons are only marked & not holed, & although the valves don’t look bent but they must be slightly as it failed the leak down test badly. I’m now looking to buy a hoist to pull the motor & I just hope the crank / end bearings aren’t damaged. Here’s a couple of links to web sites that really helped me & a couple of pics of my pistons / head.
MINI R60 Cooper D ALL4 SAV - Repair Manuals and Technical Data
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/partgrp?id=ZD52-EUR-02-2011-R60-Mini-Cooper_D_ALL4_16&mg=11
View attachment 277985
View attachment 277983

Also - how do you check the crank bearings ? I assume you are going to replace the crankshafts as well ? I am not sure how to test if they are bent at all.

 

[Dave1960]

I removed the glow plugs but they were properly seized in & I read they can easily shear off in the head. I used tons of WD40 & turned them very slightly backwards & forwards a bit more each time. It took ages, as I was probably over cautious, & I had to clean the threads up with a 10 x 1mm die as they were a slightly damaged. I bought an adaptor off eBay (Draper 10mm 12mm Adaptor for Compression Tester Testers 50026)
& I do have a compressor so I put an on off valve on the outlet pipe, followed by a pressure gauge ‘teed’ in, pressurised each cylinder turning off the on / off valve. The gauge dropped quite rapidly indicating loss of pressure so I sprayed WD40 down the intake plenum, re-pressurised each cylinder & with a torch I could see it bubbling up so knew at least the inlet valves were leaking. Hope this helps.

 

[Dave1960]

I’m hoping Mike will advise On checking the crank etc. but I think you have to take the sump off to change the timing chain, so I was going to remove the big end caps to inspect the bearings / crankshaft.

 

[mike1967]

they dint tend to hurt crank to much but can impact the bearings and damage the white metal coatings.. for the sake of extra £100 ish stick new set of bearing in worth doing,, daves engines is not the normal they tend to do a fair bit of damage,, looks like he has got away with just new valves ,, i would deffo remove all valves and spin in a drill will soon see if bent as will vibrate and not rotate evenly,, also would do new valve stem seals at same time,, and always use a blob of grease in the rubber part when building back up prevents the seals going dry on first start up,,, remember when the grease melts the engine will smoke blue for a few miles until grease burnt off, yes sump off for chains, ie oil pump chain, middle link chain and top chain ,,, also use wellseal sealant best stuff for job,as other sealants are to thick and can block things up.

Stag Wellseal 100ml Engine Block Cylinder Head Gasket Shim Sealant Classic Cars | eBay

It can be used to seal threaded connections as well as flat- faced joints and can be used with or without a gasket, depending upon the design of the assembly. Because of the vast range and product types, many parts may appear to be correct and then are not.

www.ebay.co.uk