i put lifter posts in vice and crush them out of oil, they should after engine heats up driven fir while find their own levels again unless worn out

 

Car has been running well but noise is still there.

If I recall the oil pump/system varies the pressure? I wonder if this is just the lifters bleeding down at low speed. The noise 100% disappears at 1500 rpm or more. Rev the engine up and the noise goes away until it slows at idle for a few moments.

I was thinking it would be worth putting a mechanical oil pressure gauge on to see what it is at various rpm. I have yet to look where the sending unit is - do you guys know off hand? N16 non turbo from 2011...

thanks

 

oil pressure switch is on front of engine on oil filter housing not very easy to gain access

 

Thanks - I found it.

I assume the car will give an error message If I pull the sensor and put in a mechanical gauge and run it? Thinking I should T into it so sensor and mechanical gauge can be plumbed at same time ?

Does anyone know what the pressure should be at idle and at various rpms to ensure the variable valve is working correctly?

 

the n16 engines dont have metal retang rings they were all only carbon plastic ie better ones that dont wear the the head away , that said of been running low oil levels it will still hurt the camshafts and when do get oil light on idle when gets hot common outcome

 

Ok good to know - have no issues with oil ight coming on and running 5W -40 wt alone and with lucas stabilizer made no diff.

I dont think it was run low on oil but I bought it with 74 k on it, was one owner the guy owned a CNC machine shop with his dad and brother so I assume he understood mechanical/maintenance to some extent...

I'll measure the oil pressure this weekend. if its low will look at the clearances pump and solenoid otherwise I think my next step is the lash adjusters. They seemed stiff when I had them out.

 

If you had regular oil changes you're probably fine. If your valve stem seals haven't been replaced yet then they will need it soon. Replace your timing chain guides when you do the stem seals. You'll know the stem seals are bad because the car will smoke a lot at idle. It's a very common problem.

 

I have a 2011 Mini Cooper base- non turbo. I bought it with 72k miles, currently 103k miles. Engine runs fine, does not seem to have the timing chain death rattle I have seen in you tube videos.

Is this engine in the years that were considered part of the timing chain problems? I wasn't sure if they ended in 2010 (thought that was the last year for the recall) Or I should be concerned on my car? Other than the rattle can you inspect the chain via removing the valve cover? Anything else I should look for chain wise.

While I certainly have the skills to do the chain would prefer not to if I don't have to

timing chain went all way up to 2015 when bmw started using own engine, even then seeing a few with over 100k with same chain issues, same chain system on pre 2010 to post 2010 to 2015, same block same pistons same head ,, the post 2010 engines had piloted oil pump and moved the oil pressure switch to housing, and different vac pump few other little changes,, i got one in at moment going to fit a 2013 engine from a n16b16 in to a pre 2010 ie 2008 cooper , so 2008 gets a 2013 low miles engine

 

timing chain went all way up to 2015 when bmw started using own engine, even then seeing a few with over 100k with same chain issues, same chain system on pre 2010 to post 2010 to 2015, same block same pistons same head ,, the post 2010 engines had piloted oil pump and moved the oil pressure switch to housing, and different vac pump few other little changes,, i got one in at moment going to fit a 2013 engine from a n16b16 in to a pre 2010 ie 2008 cooper , so 2008 gets a 2013 low miles engine

So you are saying the timing chain issues continued up until 2015? So it is a safe bet to change out if I want to keep the car?

Seems like you are in the repair business? are there any things to be aware of if doing the chain? I'm very experienced home mechanic / restorer of classics , just my first mini

If you had regular oil changes you're probably fine. If your valve stem seals haven't been replaced yet then they will need it soon. Replace your timing chain guides when you do the stem seals. You'll know the stem seals are bad because the car will smoke a lot at idle. It's a very common problem.

No smoking at the moment , although it will use 1.5-2 qts in 5-6k mile oil change interval


to both of you can you measure how much slack if valve cover is removed?

Thanks for your help

 

So you are saying the timing chain issues continued up until 2015? So it is a safe bet to change out if I want to keep the car?

Seems like you are in the repair business? are there any things to be aware of if doing the chain? I'm very experienced home mechanic / restorer of classics , just my first mini



No smoking at the moment , although it will use 1.5-2 qts in 5-6k mile oil change interval


to both of you can you measure how much slack if valve cover is removed?

Thanks for your help

yes I repair these cars , have done for over 10 years now , the last 8 of those a lot of prince engines with chain and oil burning issues , not a if it goes that way its a when , all of these engines in uk with 60-70,000 miles on them chains were stretched badly , seen cars with 50k on chain snapped before , the cars that do better are the ones that do most of their mileage from same speed running these seem to do big miles before needing it doing, also oil , dont stick to the long life bmw service time span, 10k max 12 months max,
bmw use plastic flexi metal coated oil rings on pistons total crap, i've been changing them to 3 piece solid rings for many years now sorts out oil use,
timing chain fitting need a good lock tool , good chain kit i always fit a full kit with oil pump chains etc and all sprockets hubs ,, and stretch bolts and longer later tensioner , bare in mind all sprockets have no keyway or location , all are infinite and set by a stretch bolt

 

There is a way to measure timing chain slack. The timing chain tensioner tool will come with the engine timing tool kit but looks like you can also get it in the link below.

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-schwaben-parts/bmw-mini-timing-chain-pre-tensioning-tool/028634sch01a/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA_OetBhAtEiwAPTeQZ7opTwzURQvmISYHxUfEc2vXV4k8NYRNS3UMOpnrxPsMuRldHjm68xoCJPEQAvD_BwE

When I changed my chain at 80k miles it had zero stretch compared to the new chain. In my opinion it is the plastic timing guides that wear and get brittle with age which wear down and break. This can happen quicker with long oil change intervals. The Timing chain tensioner has a spring loaded piston that is pumped up with oil pressure like a hydraulic valve lifter. The tensioner will keep the chain tight until it runs out of movable range.

The timing chain tensioner tool used in the video is used to time the engine. You torque it to tighten the chain the correct amount before tightening the intake/exhaust camshaft sprocket bolts. This sets the cams at the correct angle. You then remove the tensioner tool and insert the chain tensioner. Some people don't have the torque wrench to use the tensioner tool so they instead insert a new chain tensioner and tighten down the cams using the spring tension given by the tension. If you don't get the chain tension correct before tightening the cam bolts you will get a check engine light with engine timing error.

 

not many people have a torque wrench that goes as low as 0.6nm for pre load tool, tighten as much as can with finger and thumb and will be ok,
much more involved than just the preload of chain , not seen one yet in uk with 80,000 miles on clock where chain was not stretched, worn, the sprockets wear as well, tell tail is where the tooth sit on top sprockets if one side of the square its due to wear ,

 

So in the middle of changing out the chain and valve seals. The chain was just above 68mm of stretch on the tensioning measuring tool but no issue with the guides except the upper guide pin/bolt on the rh side was loose and leaking oil everywhere. Could not figure the leak out until I removed the engine mount bracket that goers across the block/head there...

At any rate I ordered a oil pump drive chain and both sprockets while in there- does the oil pump sprocket get torque to and then plus 180 degrees or just torque to a NM? How do you hold the oil pump from turning?

When I get to the crank bolt tightening - 50NM plus 180 *- is it OK to hold the crank with the flywheel pin vs using the wrench that holds it via the 3 balancer bolts? Also when you tighten do you oil the bolt or use loctitie? Same with Vanos sprockets (2oNM +180)?

I couldn't find a torque spec for the M8 E torq bolts that hold the valvtronic springs on - I assumed 10NM like the cam bearing caps but didnt want to ***/u/me

Thanks

 

gentlemen - thanks for your detailed answers, very helpful.

I do have the wrench for rolling torque/preload. Was using it last night on the outdrive for my boat (bearings and seals). Do you know why they wouldn't use a keyway for the sprockets- seems like a bad choice with interference engine and driving and oil pump.

I do the oil at 5-6 k miles, the long life oil interval is dumb in my opinion especially with a turbo. My wife loves the car so I'll get this organized and do it in the near future. It is amazing compared to my other daily drivers how much more maintenance this is. I've done more on this mini between 72k and 103 k than in the first 227 k on my Camry 3.5l V6. Frustrating because they are a fun good looking car.

 

Some torque specs for you. I’ll see if I can look up the oil pump and vanos springs later.

 

Those are for an N12.

the oil pump sprocket has holes in it. When I replaced ours I just put a socket extension through one of the holes and jammed the sprocket against the case, then torqued it. Could probably also just torque the bolt with the sprocket holding against the drive chain.

I built a crank holding tool for the damper bolt out of some leftover scraps:

Was simple enough to make. I didn’t want to trust the little flywheel lock pin to not shear off under the load. The pin is only meant to locate the crank, so its most likely only a mild steel in most timing kits, or perhaps something even softer. It might hold, it might bend (and jam) or it might shear. I didn’t want to find out which….

 

Thanks for the detailed reply and many pics. I have an N16 assume the torque values are the same?

I'll rig up a tool to hold the crank for tightening. I had to do the same to get the springs back on the valvetronic set up. Used a socket extension with two box wrenches to get the bolt in and then used a 1/2" cooper tube with a notch in it to place the lower spring end in the intermediate rocker/follower.

Do the crankshaft sprockets for the timing chain and oil pump chain need to be aligned to each other? I thought I saw a thread here where the timing slipped after doing a chain and the guy thought it was because the teeth on the two crank sprockets were not aligned with each other. In my Bentley manual it shows this in a picture but doesn't say anything about needing to align the teeth with each other.

Not sure if Bentley manuals have gone down hill, I thought they were great back in the 80's and early 90's for my VWs , this manual seems to be lacking in a lot of detail certainly not as much of the torque values as shown in pics above.

thanks again for your help

 

Answered by flightops

 

you need timing chain lock tools as all sprockets are infinite no key ways no marks etc , below link for kind of tool needed

Laser Tools 5149 Timing Tool Kit - for MINI Cooper, PSA

Laser Tools 5149 MINI and Peugeot have developed a pair of new engines; the N12 and N14 ranges incorporate the latest technologies to give the best...

www.lasertools.co.uk

below is the timing tools i have by far best around

Draper 16240 Chain Engine Locking Kit for BMW, MINI, Citroen & Peugeot

Draper 16240 Chain Engine Locking Kit (BMW, MINI, CITROEN, PEUGEOT)Used on the following Vehicles: BMW 3 Series 2012 - 2015 BMW 1 Series 2011 - 2016 Mini Clubman 2007 - 2

www.toolstop.co.uk

there are cheap china tolls that are rubbish for under £100 personally would not use them couple of degees out will cause a load of issues with running and lean outs

 

I have the tool set what confused me was a thread on here where someone said they had an issue not indexing the two crank gears to each other so that the teeth on sprocket for timing chain matched position to the teeth on the oil pump sprocket.

I did get a good tool set as I cant stand cheap **** either. they matched the cam positions when I put them on. In the end I don't think my chain was that bad. There was a noise that could be the death rattle at idle I think once it got hot. The chain was just offer 68mm on the tensioner tool so wanted to keep the car I know I'm good moving forward. I need to do valve seals anyways so no sense not doing the chain while in there. I found the upper timing chain guide pin was loose (behind the engine mount brace) and the source of an oil leak I couldn't figure out.

Now that I can see it well it looks like my water pump pulley rubber coating is worn off in spots, this may be why I thought the noise was louder when it got warm?

Either way the valves seals were hard and brittle and now the chains will be good for another 100k ...
thanks

 

torque values should be same, but if you give me last 7 of your vin I can look it up.

Oil pump is not “timed” to the cam timing. Just install properly and go.

 

thanks again - BT253753 are the last digits. Really appreciate the- help above and beyond !!

 

I have the tool set what confused me was a thread on here where someone said they had an issue not indexing the two crank gears to each other so that the teeth on the sprocket for timing chain matched position to the teeth on the oil pump sprocket................... NA THAT JUST B/S , total rubbish someone who no idea has wrote, get it a lot where someone trys to do a job that they have no clue about i'm afraid then they make up comments that others believe, joys of Internet i'm afraid .
the cam sprockets can be set in any position on camshafts
its common for water pump pulley to break up and make noise like bottom end going

 

perfect thank you! that's why I asked I figured it didn't make sense and probably did not get the bolt stretched properly...

Yeah the pulley I replaced 4 yrs / 40 k miles with an OEM BMW one- do they really not last long ?

When I heard a noise I had checked that but until I had the motor mount above it off I could not see the damage

 

on gen 1 engines the oil pump drive must be set to the crank correctly to get front cover to locate correctly , ie tritec engine not prince engines

 

Timing is easy if you have the tooling.

pin the flywheel, lock the cams, install the chain and sprockets, torque the tty bolts and you’re done. Well, there’s a few more details than that, but thats it in a nutshell.

I went the extra step of using the Peugeot degree measurement to confirm my tooling was correct as can be seen here:

You don’t need to if you have good tooling. It was just a nice quick and easy confirmation for my own peace of mind.

 

Our 2009 n12 is running the original water pump drive wheel (wpdw). 140,000+ kms. I’d say how long they last is a combination of the quality of the part and the environment in which its operated.

Oil leakage would also be a wpdw killer. Breaks down the rubber. Another good reason to chase down (and fix) any oil weeping on the acc drive side of the engine asap. I’ve been known to run a hand down behind the rocker cover in that area when I do my general engine look over (cold engine of course) every couple weeks. If the hand comes back wet, time to chase it down.

the rest of the acc drive has been changed, but the wpdw is still oem.

I do watch it like a hawk though and when it starts showing any checking/cracking its getting replaced along with a new water pump.

Its such a pita to get to, I’ll do the wp on spec when/if I get it apart. WP is original as well.

Would have replaced both when I rebuilt the engine, but the money well is only so deep. Needs time to refill after its been drained…

 

@flightops and @mike1967 - gentlemen thanks for your help with this job. Got it completed yesterday, reset the vanos adaptations and the car runs great. engine doesn't have any abnormal valvetrain noise anymore. Glad I did the oil pump chain as well that was very loose, and the timing chain tension measurement is like 12 -13 mm less.

Its seems to have much more low end power now. Am I kidding myself of can these get so worn that the cams are retarded with out kicking a code? Its a non turbo automatic so no speed demon but it seems much more spirited when driving than before.

thanks again for your guidance.

 

yes they run retarded and spark angle gets to a point that ignition is before top dead centre, at that point it's pushing against itself , the ecu will take up some of the wear by adjusting vanos , more it wears the more it will lose power, also when reset adaptions get car hot then do a couple of revs to red line will teach adaptions better

 

If it's consuming oil, it's likely the valve seats are at least pitted. Our N12 was when it was oil burning.

Good news is a simple hand lapping usually restores them. No reason not to anyways if it's already apart....even if it's just to give them a "freshen up".

 

will add if you can see grooves in the first journals on cylinder head where retang rings sit then hea dis for the bin and likely wont hold timing thuis happens on all pre 2009 engine as they use metal rings, later use a nylon carbon type ring and dont wear the journal,, IMPORTANT MUST POLISH THE SURFACES WHERE RINGS RUN WITH DREMEL AND METAL POLISH IS HOW I DO THEM ,, failure to do this will wear the nylon rings away more so on pre 2009 cars,

 

These little engines aren’t exactly “whisper quiet” even when they are running right. They’re kind of mechanically noisy in my experience.

Seems to be top end noise. Whether thats lash adjusters or vanos doesn’t really matter. its not a problem, its just they way they are.

The key is to be familiar with how it sounds in normal operation and notice when anything changes or gets louder. Same with any engine…

 

I saw lines there but nothing that caught a finger nail.

here is link to video of it running, was shot with my phone clacking is consistent despite going in and out a bit on video. This noise was present prior to timing and oil pump chain , valve seal, water pump pulley work. There was additional noise prior that was the chain that is now gone. 100% sure the springs for the intermediate rockers are in correct spot. Have tried different oil weights, run seafoam in oil to clean which did remove light deposits from head, lucas stabilizer etc. was wondering if I should have replaced liters while in there.

not sure if this is normal ish noise is coming from along back of valve cover by intake cam and valvetronic cam/ecentric

at least I know the chain is solid now, amazing diff in slack vs old ones. Planned on driving a few more miles and then rechecking the timing just to put my mind at ease that the stretch bolts were done right.

Any thoughts on what the noise is only thoughts I have are to check oil pressure with a gauge? And that’s its lifter related and excess lash.… either replace lifters or turn up radio. No dirveability issues car runs strong for what it is

 

@mike1967

mike was hoping you could give a listen and offer your advice on what the noise may be. As mentioned was there before the timing chain work

 

Yeah, there's something going on there. Hard to tell anything definitive from a YT video, but there's too much "clatter". Gas engines should never have a diesel-ish clatter sound to them. Sort of sounds like there's a lash adjuster (what you're probably calling a lifter) not pumping up fully or something along those lines. Certainly a valve train noise somewhere.

For comparison, here's our 2009 N12 :

That's a dead cold start. Only 23c showing on the ECT gauge. Literally the amount of time it takes to hit the start button, walk to the front and start the phone recording. Lash adjusters are even probably still pumping up fully.

As I mentioned, not exactly the quietest engines and you can hear the valves and valve train tapping quietly when you're standing in front of it in person, but that clatter in yours shouldn't be there....certainly worth chasing down as excessive clearance causing clatter causes accelerated wear and only gets worse over time. The roller bearing inside the roller cam followers really don't like excessive clearances. They like to run smoothly and excessive clearance tends to beat on their internal needle/roller bearings and flatten a side on them. Then they stop being rollers and try to act like plain bearings. Failure follows soon after. Good news is it doesn't happen all at once because the little needle bearing are very hard, but they will eventually flat spot if run like that for extended periods.

If you have a mechanics stethoscope available, have a listen around the engine to see where that clatter can be heard the loudest. That will help you home in on it. If you don't have access to a steth, a long (very long) screwdriver held against the bone behind and at the base of your ear can also work to touch the engine in various places to try and narrow the location down.

Unfortunately, these engines don't really run very well with the valve cover off, so you'll have to sort of touch the cover or the metal parts of the head you can get to to try and narrow it down.

good luck.

 

Yeah, there's something going on there. Hard to tell anything definitive from a YT video, but there's too much "clatter". Sort of sounds like there a lash adjuster (what you're probably calling a lifter) not pumping up fully or something along those lines. Certainly a valve train noise somewhere.

For comparison, here's our N12 :

That's a dead cold start. Only 23c showing on the ECT gauge. Literally the amount of time it takes to hit the start button and start the phone recording. Lash adjusters are even probably still pumping up fully.

As I mentioned, not exactly the quietest engines and you can hear the valves and valve train tapping quietly when you're standing in front of it in person, but that clatter in yours shouldn't be there....certainly worth chasing down as excessive clearance causing clatter causes accelerated wear and only gets worse over time.

Yes lash adjuster is what I’m mistakenly calling a lifter. Yes this noise has gotten louder over the years. Bought it with 74 k miles, now has 110 k. Seemed like the one previous owner took reasonable care of it and I have done synthetic oil every 5 k but has always used oil.

thanks