[Scott06]

timing chain went all way up to 2015 when bmw started using own engine, even then seeing a few with over 100k with same chain issues, same chain system on pre 2010 to post 2010 to 2015, same block same pistons same head ,, the post 2010 engines had piloted oil pump and moved the oil pressure switch to housing, and different vac pump few other little changes,, i got one in at moment going to fit a 2013 engine from a n16b16 in to a pre 2010 ie 2008 cooper , so 2008 gets a 2013 low miles engine

So you are saying the timing chain issues continued up until 2015? So it is a safe bet to change out if I want to keep the car?

Seems like you are in the repair business? are there any things to be aware of if doing the chain? I'm very experienced home mechanic / restorer of classics , just my first mini

If you had regular oil changes you're probably fine. If your valve stem seals haven't been replaced yet then they will need it soon. Replace your timing chain guides when you do the stem seals. You'll know the stem seals are bad because the car will smoke a lot at idle. It's a very common problem.

No smoking at the moment , although it will use 1.5-2 qts in 5-6k mile oil change interval


to both of you can you measure how much slack if valve cover is removed?

Thanks for your help

 

[Scott06]

gentlemen - thanks for your detailed answers, very helpful.

I do have the wrench for rolling torque/preload. Was using it last night on the outdrive for my boat (bearings and seals). Do you know why they wouldn't use a keyway for the sprockets- seems like a bad choice with interference engine and driving and oil pump.

I do the oil at 5-6 k miles, the long life oil interval is dumb in my opinion especially with a turbo. My wife loves the car so I'll get this organized and do it in the near future. It is amazing compared to my other daily drivers how much more maintenance this is. I've done more on this mini between 72k and 103 k than in the first 227 k on my Camry 3.5l V6. Frustrating because they are a fun good looking car.

 

[Scott06]

not many people have a torque wrench that goes as low as 0.6nm for pre load tool, tighten as much as can with finger and thumb and will be ok,
much more involved than just the preload of chain , not seen one yet in uk with 80,000 miles on clock where chain was not stretched, worn, the sprockets wear as well, tell tail is where the tooth sit on top sprockets if one side of the square its due to wear ,

So in the middle of changing out the chain and valve seals. The chain was just above 68mm of stretch on the tensioning measuring tool but no issue with the guides except the upper guide pin/bolt on the rh side was loose and leaking oil everywhere. Could not figure the leak out until I removed the engine mount bracket that goers across the block/head there...

At any rate I ordered a oil pump drive chain and both sprockets while in there- does the oil pump sprocket get torque to and then plus 180 degrees or just torque to a NM? How do you hold the oil pump from turning?

When I get to the crank bolt tightening - 50NM plus 180 *- is it OK to hold the crank with the flywheel pin vs using the wrench that holds it via the 3 balancer bolts? Also when you tighten do you oil the bolt or use loctitie? Same with Vanos sprockets (2oNM +180)?

I couldn't find a torque spec for the M8 E torq bolts that hold the valvtronic springs on - I assumed 10NM like the cam bearing caps but didnt want to ***/u/me

Thanks

 

[Scott06]

View attachment 298533
View attachment 298534

Those are for an N12.

the oil pump sprocket has holes in it. When I replaced ours I just put a socket extension through one of the holes and jammed the sprocket against the case, then torqued it. Could probably also just torque the bolt with the sprocket holding against the drive chain.

I built a crank holding tool for the damper bolt out of some leftover scraps:

View attachment 298535

Was simple enough to make. I didn’t want to trust the little flywheel lock pin to not shear off under the load. The pin is only meant to locate the crank, so its most likely only a mild steel in most timing kits, or perhaps something even softer. It might hold, it might bend (and jam) or it might shear. I didn’t want to find out which….

Thanks for the detailed reply and many pics. I have an N16 assume the torque values are the same?

I'll rig up a tool to hold the crank for tightening. I had to do the same to get the springs back on the valvetronic set up. Used a socket extension with two box wrenches to get the bolt in and then used a 1/2" cooper tube with a notch in it to place the lower spring end in the intermediate rocker/follower.

Do the crankshaft sprockets for the timing chain and oil pump chain need to be aligned to each other? I thought I saw a thread here where the timing slipped after doing a chain and the guy thought it was because the teeth on the two crank sprockets were not aligned with each other. In my Bentley manual it shows this in a picture but doesn't say anything about needing to align the teeth with each other.

Not sure if Bentley manuals have gone down hill, I thought they were great back in the 80's and early 90's for my VWs , this manual seems to be lacking in a lot of detail certainly not as much of the torque values as shown in pics above.

thanks again for your help

 

[Scott06]

torque values should be same, but if you give me last 7 of your vin I can look it up.

Oil pump is not “timed” to the cam timing. Just install properly and go.

thanks again - BT253753 are the last digits. Really appreciate the- help above and beyond !!

 

[Scott06]

you need timing chain lock tools as all sprockets are infinite no key ways no marks etc , below link for kind of tool needed

Laser Tools 5149 Timing Tool Kit - for MINI Cooper, PSA

Laser Tools 5149 MINI and Peugeot have developed a pair of new engines; the N12 and N14 ranges incorporate the latest technologies to give the best...

www.lasertools.co.uk

below is the timing tools i have by far best around

Draper 16240 Chain Engine Locking Kit for BMW, MINI, Citroen & Peugeot

Draper 16240 Chain Engine Locking Kit (BMW, MINI, CITROEN, PEUGEOT)Used on the following Vehicles: BMW 3 Series 2012 - 2015 BMW 1 Series 2011 - 2016 Mini Clubman 2007 - 2

www.toolstop.co.uk

there are cheap china tolls that are rubbish for under £100 personally would not use them couple of degees out will cause a load of issues with running and lean outs

I have the tool set what confused me was a thread on here where someone said they had an issue not indexing the two crank gears to each other so that the teeth on sprocket for timing chain matched position to the teeth on the oil pump sprocket.

I did get a good tool set as I cant stand cheap **** either. they matched the cam positions when I put them on. In the end I don't think my chain was that bad. There was a noise that could be the death rattle at idle I think once it got hot. The chain was just offer 68mm on the tensioner tool so wanted to keep the car I know I'm good moving forward. I need to do valve seals anyways so no sense not doing the chain while in there. I found the upper timing chain guide pin was loose (behind the engine mount brace) and the source of an oil leak I couldn't figure out.

Now that I can see it well it looks like my water pump pulley rubber coating is worn off in spots, this may be why I thought the noise was louder when it got warm?

Either way the valves seals were hard and brittle and now the chains will be good for another 100k ...
thanks

 

[Scott06]

I have the tool set what confused me was a thread on here where someone said they had an issue not indexing the two crank gears to each other so that the teeth on the sprocket for timing chain matched position to the teeth on the oil pump sprocket................... NA THAT JUST B/S , total rubbish someone who no idea has wrote, get it a lot where someone trys to do a job that they have no clue about i'm afraid then they make up comments that others believe, joys of Internet i'm afraid .
the cam sprockets can be set in any position on camshafts
its common for water pump pulley to break up and make noise like bottom end going

perfect thank you! that's why I asked I figured it didn't make sense and probably did not get the bolt stretched properly...

Yeah the pulley I replaced 4 yrs / 40 k miles with an OEM BMW one- do they really not last long ?

When I heard a noise I had checked that but until I had the motor mount above it off I could not see the damage

 

[Scott06]

@flightops and @mike1967 - gentlemen thanks for your help with this job. Got it completed yesterday, reset the vanos adaptations and the car runs great. engine doesn't have any abnormal valvetrain noise anymore. Glad I did the oil pump chain as well that was very loose, and the timing chain tension measurement is like 12 -13 mm less.

Its seems to have much more low end power now. Am I kidding myself of can these get so worn that the cams are retarded with out kicking a code? Its a non turbo automatic so no speed demon but it seems much more spirited when driving than before.

thanks again for your guidance.

 

[Scott06]

yes they run retarded and spark angle gets to a point that ignition is before top dead centre, at that point it's pushing against itself , the ecu will take up some of the wear by adjusting vanos , more it wears the more it will lose power, also when reset adaptions get car hot then do a couple of revs to red line will teach adaptions better

good to know I took it out for a good 25 min drive on country roads with the trans in manual sport so hitting red line repeatedly. I thought it was idling and running better when I came back form that so that must have done something post adaptation reset.

I was glad to see it make such a difference and the chain slop visibly different in both chains. Whole job including the valve seals, water pump pulley, oil pan and oil pump chain, the pcv hose that cracked etc took two pretty full weekends plus some evenings... the wife loves the little car so it makes it worth it

 

[Scott06]

it takes me around 30 hours to refresh one if all goes well start to finish with all the after running and resets etc , 5 hours to strip it

thats a complete out of car engine job? or timing chain? I assume you have done enough of these to do it blind folded...

I was a little worried as cyl 2 and to a lesser extent cyl3 leaked more compressed air when holding the valves up... I did soak the piston tops with Seafoam hopefully to get any carbon off the rings. Smoked like hell for about 10 minutes...

I was at the mini dealer Saturday morning getting a crank sprocket as I didn't realize it wasn't part of my kit... I wanted to ask what they get for timing chain and valve seals.

 

[Scott06]

no thats block left in pistons out

ok so you hone and rering with block in the car? I assume you can drop the crank for machining and or new bearings?

I'll see how much the seals reduce the oil consumption, which was about 2 qt in 5-6 k miles

 

[Scott06]

Why would you machine the crank if it's just smoking , its either worn out from lack of oil pressure which in that case cheaper go find a good engine from a breaker and refresh it to fit better rings
if you aiming at total rebuild then yes engine and gearbox out, the cranks on these engines are very hard rarely wear unless oil starved and really dirty oil ,, they destroy camshafts and head before crank

Sorry - no wasn't suggesting crank regrind/bearings would solve oil burning issues...

Ok that's what I didn't know - the crank and rods are usually ok.

So really the issue is generally with the rings only? So hone and do a ring job? Does a valve job generally need to be done. What rings do you recommend?

I bought this car with 74 k miles on it looked like it was fairly well taken care of, not really much oil deposits in the engine. Saw very little wear on the cams only some light marks on the 3 cam bearing surfaces.

 

[Scott06]

yes hone , better rings I use FAI PR12-000 rings sets these are the best, I use fai stem seals , fai or elring head gasket same for bolts head, i ultra part full timing chain kit comes with all bolts and seals and oil pump chain etc, stick i a close u pic of bearings i'll give you my 2 pence worth

Good to know what parts to use and that a rering can be done in the car.

I didnt take any pics of the cam bearings. I polished them with a fine cloth honestly didnt take much to polish them.

Again appreciate your help and guidance. While for a home mechanic I am very skilled I just dont have the experience with Minis. I am very happy with this project and it runs better and is much quieter with the exception of some valve train noise. Definitely seeing the stretch before and after on the timing and oil pump chain I know it was worth the work. I post a video maybe you can tell me if the valve train noise is lifter or valvetronic related. When I cleaned them the lifter moved a bit but were stiff not sure how freely they should move ??

Thanks

 

[Scott06]

I saw lines there but nothing that caught a finger nail.

here is link to video of it running, was shot with my phone clacking is consistent despite going in and out a bit on video. This noise was present prior to timing and oil pump chain , valve seal, water pump pulley work. There was additional noise prior that was the chain that is now gone. 100% sure the springs for the intermediate rockers are in correct spot. Have tried different oil weights, run seafoam in oil to clean which did remove light deposits from head, lucas stabilizer etc. was wondering if I should have replaced liters while in there.

not sure if this is normal ish noise is coming from along back of valve cover by intake cam and valvetronic cam/ecentric

at least I know the chain is solid now, amazing diff in slack vs old ones. Planned on driving a few more miles and then rechecking the timing just to put my mind at ease that the stretch bolts were done right.

Any thoughts on what the noise is only thoughts I have are to check oil pressure with a gauge? And that’s its lifter related and excess lash.… either replace lifters or turn up radio. No dirveability issues car runs strong for what it is

 

[Scott06]

Yeah, there's something going on there. Hard to tell anything definitive from a YT video, but there's too much "clatter". Sort of sounds like there a lash adjuster (what you're probably calling a lifter) not pumping up fully or something along those lines. Certainly a valve train noise somewhere.

For comparison, here's our N12 :

That's a dead cold start. Only 23c showing on the ECT gauge. Literally the amount of time it takes to hit the start button and start the phone recording. Lash adjusters are even probably still pumping up fully.

As I mentioned, not exactly the quietest engines and you can hear the valves and valve train tapping quietly when you're standing in front of it in person, but that clatter in yours shouldn't be there....certainly worth chasing down as excessive clearance causing clatter causes accelerated wear and only gets worse over time.

Yes lash adjuster is what I’m mistakenly calling a lifter. Yes this noise has gotten louder over the years. Bought it with 74 k miles, now has 110 k. Seemed like the one previous owner took reasonable care of it and I have done synthetic oil every 5 k but has always used oil.

thanks

 

[Scott06]

Come to think of it, might be worth checking your ACC drive. The water pump pulley has been known to "chunk off" it's rubber coating and rattle quite loudly when running. Apparently, it makes that sort of "diesel-like" sound yours seems to be making.

If that's what's happening, you want to fix that ASAP!

If the water pump isn't running properly (or jams and stops), the car will overheat rapidly and kill the engine in short order.

Compounding the issue is that these cars don't have a dash ECT gauge and it can be roasting itself and you won't even know until it starts puking coolant everywhere. It's pretty much too late at that point.

It's one of the reasons i added an ECT capable OBDII dash gauge to ours. This gauge, and similar installation:

View attachment 298626

I have the main number set to ECT and the two smaller numbers to IAT and Voltage in our car. It's user definable.

IMHO, it's damned near criminal that BMW didn't put at least an ECT gauge in the dash of these.....Engine temp is a critical parameter when they're already running so close to overheat in just normal operating parameters.

i just replaced the pulley while in there. That was one of the things I checked early on

 

[Scott06]

Yeah, there's something going on there. Hard to tell anything definitive from a YT video, but there's too much "clatter". Gas engines should never have a diesel-ish clatter sound to them. Sort of sounds like there's a lash adjuster (what you're probably calling a lifter) not pumping up fully or something along those lines. Certainly a valve train noise somewhere.

For comparison, here's our 2009 N12 :

That's a dead cold start. Only 23c showing on the ECT gauge. Literally the amount of time it takes to hit the start button, walk to the front and start the phone recording. Lash adjusters are even probably still pumping up fully.

As I mentioned, not exactly the quietest engines and you can hear the valves and valve train tapping quietly when you're standing in front of it in person, but that clatter in yours shouldn't be there....certainly worth chasing down as excessive clearance causing clatter causes accelerated wear and only gets worse over time. The roller bearing inside the roller cam followers really don't like excessive clearances. They like to run smoothly and excessive clearance tends to beat on their internal needle/roller bearings and flatten a side on them. Then they stop being rollers and try to act like plain bearings. Failure follows soon after. Good news is it doesn't happen all at once because the little needle bearing are very hard, but they will eventually flat spot if run like that for extended periods.

If you have a mechanics stethoscope available, have a listen around the engine to see where that clatter can be heard the loudest. That will help you home in on it. If you don't have access to a steth, a long (very long) screwdriver held against the bone behind and at the base of your ear can also work to touch the engine in various places to try and narrow the location down.

Unfortunately, these engines don't really run very well with the valve cover off, so you'll have to sort of touch the cover or the metal parts of the head you can get to to try and narrow it down.

good luck.

as mentioned know where the noise is coming from the intake cam area loudest on left hand side but perceptible along the back valve cover. My thinking is either lash adjusters or the springs for the valvtronic are not keeping the intermediate followers tight against the cam. Both cams had zero wear

 

[Scott06]

I saw lines there but nothing that caught a finger nail.

here is link to video of it running, was shot with my phone clacking is consistent despite going in and out a bit on video. This noise was present prior to timing and oil pump chain , valve seal, water pump pulley work. There was additional noise prior that was the chain that is now gone. 100% sure the springs for the intermediate rockers are in correct spot. Have tried different oil weights, run seafoam in oil to clean which did remove light deposits from head, lucas stabilizer etc. was wondering if I should have replaced liters while in there.

not sure if this is normal ish noise is coming from along back of valve cover by intake cam and valvetronic cam/ecentric

at least I know the chain is solid now, amazing diff in slack vs old ones. Planned on driving a few more miles and then rechecking the timing just to put my mind at ease that the stretch bolts were done right.

Any thoughts on what the noise is only thoughts I have are to check oil pressure with a gauge? And that’s its lifter related and excess lash.… either replace lifters or turn up radio. No dirveability issues car runs strong for what it is

@mike1967

mike was hoping you could give a listen and offer your advice on what the noise may be. As mentioned was there before the timing chain work

 

[Scott06]

water pump pulley coating or jockey wheel maybe near impossible to judge noises on a laptop

Thanks I know tough to tell from keyboard…

I just put a new water pump pulley on as coating was coming off… jockeywheel felt fine but I can run it briefly with the tension removed .

one question when I had the lash adjusters out they didn’t really compress much not sure if that means they are staying pumped up like they should or that means they are stuck? Any way to tell if they are bad?